Episode 618 | Matthew Rauch | "Banshee"

[00:00:08] Darek, how are you, man? Nice to see you. Dude, I've been wanting to talk to you since the end of Banshee, so it's been a bit. I've got to tell you, Matthew, as a podcaster, it's days like this that I love. I interview two wonderful actors. I just got out of an interview with Ben Foster. I get to interview you. One of my favorites, and he's in one of my favorite movies, actually. What's one of your favorite movies? I have to ask. Hell or High Water is a great movie. Oh, that's unbelievable. And I don't even know what to ask him.

[00:00:38] It's kind of overwhelming because I asked him a question about being underrated because he's immensely underrated. There isn't an actor with more ability than he has. Well, he's not underrated in the business. I think everybody knows about him in the business. I mean, I just talked to a friend who's making a movie who's trying to put him in his movie. Yeah, yeah. I guess underrated in the sense that we hear a lot of the same names over and over again, and his name should be in that circle, I guess. But anyways, I'm talking to a phenomenal actor in you, and I'm so happy you made time for me today. So thank you for that.

[00:01:07] I'm delighted. Thanks a lot. I appreciate you asking. It's nice to be here. You've got some great people working in your corner behind you, and that's not always the case with some talent. So I'm happy with that. Yeah, I've been with my manager, I think you're talking about, for a long time. Yeah. She's an extraordinary person and a real advocate of mine, and she makes my life a lot easier, and she's been amazing for my career, and I feel very grateful to her. Yeah, Trice, and you've got a whole team of people. Trice.

[00:01:37] Trice, Trice, yes. You've got some great people behind you. As a kid growing up, what are the movies that made you tick, man? What are the movies that are like, you know what, I've got to do this. This is a movie. It's funny. My earliest memory of watching sort of a real movie is my mother grew up in L.A., so I had a grandmother in Los Angeles, and I remember watching TV one night in her house in L.A. I'm watching Lawrence of Arabia on TV, and I have a really strong affinity for that movie.

[00:02:07] And so that's one of the earliest movies I ever saw. And then, you know, I have memories of going to the movies when I was a kid. The first R-rated movie I went to was Animal House, which I still think is my favorite movie. Yeah, it's such a great movie. But, you know, I grew up watching movies. I mean, some of those movies that I saw when I was a kid are still my favorite movies. The original Alien, The Godfather, All the President's Men, The Graduate.

[00:02:35] You know, I would watch movies on TV, and I would also watch a lot of, like, the Friday afternoon movie on ABC, you know, Godzilla versus Mothra and stuff like that. Yeah. Matthew, it's a funny thing, though, when it comes to movies and history. It's like there's so many great movies that we don't talk about anymore. Like I was listening to an interview. Bill Maher was interviewing, I think, Kevin Spacey, and they were talking about The Apartment, and they were talking about Jack Lemmon. Yeah, so how many people nowadays talk about those, like, actors that maybe don't come up in everyday conversation,

[00:03:04] but she remembers all time. Like, if they were sports figures, we'd be talking about them like it's everyday vernacular. Yeah, I mean, Jack Lemmon is like the Michael Jordan of actors, right? I mean, Jack Lemmon is an absolutely, was, I should say, an absolutely amazing actor. The Apartment is another movie that I saw when I was a very young man, and remains one of my favorite films, and is one of, I think, one of the best films ever made. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's a lot of movies out there. There are a lot of stories that have been told.

[00:03:33] We live in a world of sort of overwhelming amounts of content, and so I think it's hard for people to sort of say, you know, this is my favorite, and this is the best, and, you know, it's all, and it's such a subjective business. I mean, there's a poster behind you, Interstellar is one of my favorite films, but I know a lot of people who are like, I don't understand it. I don't, you know, so everything is just sort of subjective, you know? Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:02] It's definitely one of those movies, Matthew, the one, Interstellar, where, like, every time I rewatch it, I pick up something I missed. Yeah. I've watched, like, behind the scenes and Nolan's interviews and listened to his commentary on it. It's, I love that film. Absolutely love that film. Matthew, as an actor, speaking of Nolan, like, I've said this in other interviews. He has a no cell phone on set policy, and I'm thinking to myself, but what actor is pulling out a cell phone when you have Christopher Nolan directing you?

[00:04:32] Like, how are you not treating this like the biggest master class in the history of whatever, right? I mean, it's a good question, and, you know, everybody to each their own. The cell phone, you know, I think is one of the great scourges of modern life. I mean, yes, it's convenient, and yes, it helps us, but I find it to be, it creates a culture of distraction that is not conducive, in my mind, to focused and good work.

[00:04:59] I'm certainly guilty of picking up my cell phone when I'm on the set of Friends and Neighbors or whatever, but I love the notion that someone says, when you're working here, don't, I want you to be focused here exclusively. You know, what actor would pick up a cell phone in front of Chris Nolan? I don't know. Not me. It's not just Chris Nolan. Like, if you're working on a procedural drama, why would you pick up your cell phone?

[00:05:28] I mean, yes, there are things that happen, and it's easy to be distracted, and if it dings or buzzes or whatever, we're sort of conditioned like Pavlov to sort of, you know, jump to the phone. But I've heard stories of his sets and also of rehearsal rooms, theater rehearsal rooms, where people say, look, when you're in my room, no phone. I don't want to see a phone. Right. I personally wish people would do that more often, you know? Wasn't that the case with Cruz during a pandemic? Didn't he lose his mind? He's like, I'm trying to save your jobs.

[00:05:58] I'm trying to get your job. Yeah, there was some, I don't pay too much attention to that stuff, but there was some video going on and he really got pissed off. And, you know, frankly, I get it. You know, he's a notoriously hard worker. He works harder than just about everybody else on the set. He demands the best of people. I know people who've worked with him who say he's just terrific. Yeah, and he seems like that. He seems like a guy that just loves making movies, and he's a nice guy. He does.

[00:06:27] Yeah, he does all those. Like, the fact that he does those stunts is wild to me. Like, I don't know. I got some Banshee. Yeah. We're going to get to that because that is one of the great things. I see this. I'm looking at this picture that you have on your screen of me and Ulrich. Yeah. I was with Jonathan Tropper the other day who created Banshee and also was the creator of Friends and Neighbors. Right. And we were talking about something having to do with Banshee, and he pulled up that picture, and he said, this is my favorite picture of you and Ulrich. And it's that picture. Yeah.

[00:06:57] Which was taken by Adam Targum, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the few shows in the history of shows that didn't go on too long. Like, it knew what – it was like Breaking Bad. It knew when it was time to go. Yeah. To my dismay because I would have loved it to go on. And it had probably double the amount of seasons it went. It could have easily went eight seasons. Easily. Yeah, we had – I mean, it was – I know we're going to talk about it at length because I know that you're interested in it, and I love to talk about it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:26] I could have done that job for a long time. I really loved that job. I love that world. I love that character. I love those people. I'm still very close with many of them. It was – in my career, at least so far, it was really one of one. It was a very special experience. It's funny to say that, Matthew, because like the – when the series ended, I don't know how I got to this. It was like Banshee Forever.

[00:07:54] It was some kind of three-minute like goodbye. Oh, yeah. I've seen that video. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it was Jonathan that's talking just to the cast, the crew, and saying, naturally, we cast a Shakespearean actor to play the – What do you say? He likes to say that. Yeah, yeah. And I've never forgotten that quote. Don't ask me why. Like, I just – it's always stuck with me. Like, I don't know. It was just such a – and the way you kind of took your glasses off and you say to him – Yeah.

[00:08:22] I'm so grateful that you allowed me to play in this world, something to that effect. I remember that day. That was my last day of shooting. It was me and Ulrich. We were shooting on the stages or near the – it's an outside scene, but we were shooting right where the stages were. This was in Pittsburgh. And the ending of something like that was – I think it was – I don't want to say difficult, but it was emotional. It was hard to sort of let go of that world.

[00:08:49] I wish I had been a little more articulate in that moment. I was sort of overwhelmed by it. There were a lot of people there because Ulrich and I and somebody else was rapping at the same time. So there were a lot of people who had gathered. All the producers were there. I was aware that there was behind-the-scenes cameras there. And I think I was really overwhelmed by it.

[00:09:09] And I – my gratitude for that job and the way it happened was – still is a little overwhelming to me. It was really an amazing experience. It was an amazing experience. And Trapper, when he first said to me, well, we hired a guy who is a Shakespearean actor who's never going to talk, he meant it sort of as a joke. And then he sort of kept repeating it. And then at some point while we were shooting Banshee, I went off – I started prepping and went off to play Macbeth, actually.

[00:09:38] And so I was – I had shot – I think it was after season three. I went to play Macbeth and then came back to shoot season four of Banshee. So, yeah. It's easily the first word out of my mouth when people ask, can you recommend the show? Banshee. That's it. Oh, that's nice. Thank you. Yeah. Well, it's four seasons. They don't waste any time. It's perfectly cast. It's unbelievably written. The music is – like there's a scene I probably rewatched a hundred times. Do you remember the scene in the shootout in the church?

[00:10:07] And he comes out with – yeah. Yeah. He comes out with a – Oh, gosh. It's the end of season one, right? It's the end of season one? I believe it is. It was right – yes, yes. And just the effect that it had on me, I was like, oh, my God. The music and – like who was it? Was it – I can't remember what actor. He says, I just – I was going to hold off on purpose to see what you were going to do with that knife. Like it was just such a great – you know, such a great – Before I get to Banshee full-time, though, I want to ask you this.

[00:10:35] How essential were like for you, Princeton and Harvard, and definitely your theater work as well? Is that – like could you have been where you are without any one of those? Well, you know, Harvard was grad school. Harvard was – I guess what we would refer to as sort of like classical actor training. Right. Princeton, I didn't major in theater or drama or acting or anything like that. I was a history major. I took a lot of different kinds of history in English literature and art history.

[00:11:05] I had never intended to be an actor until I got to college and started acting. I had an incredible experience at Princeton because I started acting when I was at Princeton. And I did a sort of a really amazing series of roles when I was in college sort of extracurricularly and had a great experience. And that's the thing that sort of led me into grad school, much to the surprise of the rest of my family.

[00:11:34] I'm sorry, what? You're going to be a what? You're not going to law school? You're not – what's happening right now? Yeah, yeah. The experience at Harvard was certainly instrumental in becoming an actor. I mean, I learned many of the things that I still rely on today, you know, many years ago. It was difficult, sort of grueling work. It was six days a week, 12 hours a day.

[00:12:03] We would have classes in the mornings and, you know, classes in the afternoon and rehearsal in the afternoon and rehearsals at night. And we were – because we were at the American Repertory Theater, we were also sort of part of the company at the American Repertory Theater. So we were understudying and we were in main stage shows. It was a very busy, really full experience. And I was certainly a better actor when I left than I was when I got there.

[00:12:33] And so instrumental, absolutely. I had – you know, I studied with some extraordinary people, people who I remember very, very fondly and who – they taught me a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm willing to bet theater is in that same realm of just, you know, really preparing you. Because if I take theater out of your background, is that a big part of it, you think? Would you have still been where you are, say, without the theater? I mean, I don't know. No, it's hard to say.

[00:13:01] I didn't really – I think every young actor has sort of dreams of being a television star, a movie star and winning Oscars or whatever. But I grew up in New York going to the theater. I started working in the theater. I didn't work on television really with any regularity until, you know, I'd say 10 years after I got out of grad school. I did a lot of theater before that, both in New York and all over the United States. Right, right.

[00:13:29] You know, the basics are the same between film and theater, or I should say between television, film, and theater. But to a certain extent, it's kind of like a fish on a bicycle. There really are different ways of thinking about it. Right. And, you know, I feel like I'm still learning how to be a TV actor or a film actor. It's a very different thing from walking onto a stage. I love walking onto a stage.

[00:13:59] I miss walking onto a stage. I haven't done a play in a few years. And so I'm sort of – there's part of me that's sort of sneaking around looking for a play. I'm going to play. I can digite. Matthew, I'll tell you this. You were born to be an actor. I'll tell you that right now. Yeah. Yeah. You are nothing short of terrific. Thank you. When it comes to Banshee, there are two actors that are very underrated that drive the show. You are one. And Tom Pelfrey is the other. Oh, Tom, he's the best. He's a great actor. I mean –

[00:14:27] Describing his part to somebody is like – when somebody asks me about Banshee, I have to describe Tom's part. It's almost impossible to do. But it's so – the way he pulls it off is – I don't know. Tom and I have a mutual friend, a very close mutual friend who's also an actor. And I talk to this guy a lot about Tom. Tom. I've watched Tom in other shows. And I remember watching Tom in Banshee.

[00:14:54] And we very, very rarely interacted in the Banshee world just because of the way. Right, right. Yeah. But it was a very tight-knit group of people and we spent a lot of time together. And I was always and remain kind of in awe of what Tom can do. He has – when I talk to our mutual friend about him, he has what we describe as a kind of transparency to him. It's almost like he's made out of glass and you can just see right through him.

[00:15:24] Yeah. He has this incredible vulnerability, this incredible strength. He's – and also in real life, he's a really beautiful guy. He's an amazing guy. And I think it shows in his performances. I've always wanted to work with him more and I hope to someday. He's really an extraordinary actor and it was really amazing to watch him grow through the process of that show.

[00:15:54] I mean, I – there's some stuff in the last couple of episodes of Banshee that he's just magnificent in. And I've always been a big, big fan. What a great description of you could see it. Especially when he has – when he wears pain when he's in the scene and he's in pain, you could see it. Like you're saying, you could see right through that. And it's – There's some – his work in Ozark and his work in Task also, if anyone's not – Task. Task. I was going to – oh, Task is unbelievable.

[00:16:24] I thought his work in Task was just extraordinary. Really extraordinary. Yeah. He's one of my favorite actors and it's nice to be friends with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell him you said nice things. Yeah. Let me ask you this. So I have some Reddit questions and the Reddit community is so nice and positive. And I was like – they were so enthusiastic. I hope so. You never know if I read it, right? I mean – Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I shouldn't have read any of this stuff. Yeah, you're right. Because sometimes I'll say like I'm interviewing so-and-so. I'd love to ask your questions.

[00:16:53] Some people will reply, what did you run out of your own questions? No, I just like to get people involved. I have plenty of questions, you know. But ChickyJ75 says, do you feel as badass as you look in the fight scenes? No, definitely not. I mean, there is a part of shooting those fight scenes where you, you know, you certainly feel like a badass. I mean, they've choreographed the fight so that generally, unless it's the last episode of the show, I'm winning the fight. So yes, I feel like a badass.

[00:17:23] It's fun to do. It's very difficult work. It's unbelievably technical. We did do a lot of our own stunts. We had stunt doubles, of course. I had an absolutely incredible stunt double. Shout out. Shout out to Dave McCumber, who was the best and taught me so much. And he was my guy for four years. And so I got to know him very, very well. But do I feel like a badass? Yeah, sure. Why not?

[00:17:53] It's been a long time since we've done that work. But yeah, I felt like a badass. It was pretty fun. Before I got, before the interview started, I was watching. It was, was it Nola? The fight with, is it Nola? Is that right? In the car. Yes, in the car. That is one hell of a fight. That's the one. Yeah, and she is stunning. And when I saw that scene, I was like, whoa, what an unbelievable scene. Like, I tell you, if you don't feel badass after that, nothing's going to make you feel badass. That was, people ask about it a lot.

[00:18:22] I mean, that was a, that's, you know, that was probably the hardest shooting day I've ever had in my life. Um, we ended up, we, we prepped that scene for about a month in total, two weeks separately. Odette lived in California at the time, and I was in North Carolina shooting. And so, I was rehearsing with her stunt double, and she was rehearsing with my stunt double. I mean, it was a really complex thing to figure out.

[00:18:51] Jeez, I didn't realize how complex that can be. And then we got together, and then the four of us, Odie and I, and the two stunt doubles, Bonnie and Dave, rehearsed all together with the coordinators. And then we rehearsed for a couple days with the camera operator, because it was so, and there were moments where, I mean, there's a moment in the, like, I held the camera, and sometimes Dave held the camera when they sort of passed us through the car. It was really a complicated thing to shoot.

[00:19:19] But we shot the entire thing in one day, and it happened to be the hottest day of the summer. And so, you know, they had, like, a paramedic there, and they had a cooling tent for us. And, you know, by the end of the day, there's these pictures of Odie and I, and we're like, what did we just do? And then, because it was Odette's, they sort of scheduled it so that it was, like, spoiler alert, she's gone at the end of the fight.

[00:19:44] We all went out that night until, you know, four in the morning or something, and then Odie, you know, saluted us and went away. It was a really amazing experience. There's such a great, there's the camera pans on you, you got glass in your face, and you're picking, I just, I don't know, man. Oh, that, picking the glass up? Yeah, yeah, that's really great. Somebody wanted to ask, and I forgot their name, I'm sorry. Did you audition for the role? What's the role prep like for a guy like that? I did, I auditioned for Burton. I auditioned for Burton.

[00:20:15] I was, I am friendly with the casting directors who were working on Banshee, and I happened to see one of them while they were working on it. And I said, what are you guys doing? And she told me, I said, oh, that sounds wild, really cool. I said, I'd love to be a part of that. She said, well, there isn't really anything for you, but if, you know. And I was like, cool, whatever. A couple weeks later, I got a call that said they've been looking for this guy. They can't find this guy. They want to see you. Do you want to come in? And I said, of course.

[00:20:45] And I had this experience where they sent me a scene. There are many scenes of Burton where he actually speaks, but they sent me a scene. It was the scene with the manager of the UFC fighter in the first season. Oh, okay. Okay. I got you. Yep. And I read it and just sort of instantly, I had one of those things where I read it and thought, oh, I know exactly what to do with this, which is not usually how it works for me. I don't.

[00:21:14] Have the sense of like that. It always takes me a little while to kind of warm my way into it, but this, I just sort of had an idea about it. And I, you know, I put on a suit and I slicked my hair and I put on some glasses and I, you know, I went to this audition and I, I did a take. I remember I did the first take and I actually, I screwed something up. I forgot a line or something like that. And at the end of the scene, it was written.

[00:21:43] It was written that he takes his glasses off and walks into the trailer. Right. Right. Right. Right. And then, so I did the first take and I screwed it up and she said, try it again. And I did the second take. And I remember I took my glasses off and I walked by the camera and the casting director, God bless her said, and he kills him. And they stopped rolling the camera. She was like, that's great. And I, I called my, I think my manager afterwards and said, I think I might get that job.

[00:22:13] And she was like, okay, settle down. Yeah. And I got a call, I think it was the next day that said they're really interested. But what's funny about this, I don't know if you know this, when I auditioned for the job, it was just meant to be a couple, three episodes. It was just a few episodes of the show. So, and so I was really, you know, I hadn't done a ton. I had worked in TV, like a lot of episodic TV and all lawn art here.

[00:22:40] And, you know, but I thought I was going to go to North Carolina and shoot two, three, maybe four episodes of this show. And I went down there and I met Chopper and Greg and the whole gang. And it just, it just sort of, they just kept saying, keep coming back, keep coming back. So, you know, I, I don't know how I latched onto this, this group, but I, I managed to, to stay for four years. That's awesome. Let me ask you this.

[00:23:09] And I understand why he doesn't have a lot, Burton doesn't have a lot of words. It's because his, his actions speak louder than his words. But let me ask you this. Is there ever a conversation between you and Chopper where you're like, maybe we should give him more dialogue or is that never even brought up? You know, I try to be, first of all, you know, my job, my job is to, is to take his words and, and, and, and his story and bring it to life. That's my job.

[00:23:36] It's very rare that I'll go to someone and say, what do you think if I did this? And what do you do that? You know, I'll jokingly say to Chopper on friends and neighbors, like, don't you think that Gordy and John Hamm should go to Vegas on a trip together? You know, great. We're going to do that. But I mean, it's possible that we talked about possibilities for Burton, but it was never like, Oh, give me more lines.

[00:24:04] I don't, I'm not, I never was sort of interested in that. I do remember that when I got there on the first day, I was introduced to Jonathan. And, um, you know, I had gotten on a plane and flown to North Carolina and all of a sudden I'm meeting these people and then I'm on a set and I'm wearing this suit and the glasses and my hair is all slicked back and they're getting ready to shoot. And I'm like, so can you just tell me about this guy? Like, what's he, what's the deal? Like, what's his, you know, what's he all about?

[00:24:31] And it was very kind of like theater dork questions. Right. What's his motivation? What's his background? Well, who is this person? Right. Yeah. And Jonathan was like, I don't know. It's like, I don't really know. Like he's this quiet guy who's really scary and dangerous and he works for a property. And I was like, Oh, okay.

[00:24:52] So a lot of that work, I think came from me thinking about it and starting to sort of flesh it out in my own imagination. And I think they, I mean, bless them. They sort of picked up on it and they just kept, and I talked to Ulrich about it. We had a conversation about it. Um, um, I love that man. God. Um, we spent a lot of time together and he's the best.

[00:25:20] He's, I mean, that whole group, but it's hard for me to sort of, I can't rank them. Like they're all, I love these people so much. Um, I miss them and, uh, I see some of them sometimes. I know you've interviewed Matt Servito among other people. Yeah. He's a really nice guy. And Demetrius grows is great too. Oh, you interviewed Demetrius. Oh, that's true. Yeah. Um, you know, I wanted to ask you this, um, uh, you know, the way he approaches himself. I have always thought maybe they did it in the show. I don't remember.

[00:25:49] I always thought his background was, um, trauma like that, that Burton had trauma in his background. You know, that's what I, that's what I always associated with. Maybe it's because of the way he comes off. I don't know, but is that somewhat accurate? You think? It's, I think it's very accurate. I mean, there's some, there's a few hints in the show.

[00:26:07] There's a couple of sequences we shot that come up when, when in sort of Burton's memory and imagination of him being tortured, of him being imprisoned and, and Proctor rescuing him. Um, and, um, we never, I mean, I got specific with that in my own imagination. Um, and I, I sort of confirmed like Jonathan and Adam Targum and Schickler.

[00:26:34] Like we, we talked about that stuff in very general ways. Um, but part of what I think for the audience, what Burton, what's so interesting about Burton is that you just don't know. You're not really sure who this guy is. And the only thing you're certain of is that he is a thousand percent loyal to Proctor and that he is absolutely terrifying.

[00:27:01] And other than that, I think it's sort of, I kind of don't want to give away what was going on in my brain about him. Cause I think it's sort of spoils the fun for him. I think the people who watch him are kind of going what's going on. And there's a part of him that is so neutral that it allows you to kind of project your own imagination onto him and say, this is what I think is going on with this guy. Right, right, right, right. Yes. Yes. Trauma for sure.

[00:27:31] He was clearly a very, uh, damaged person when he ended up working for Proctor. Um, and I think the, what's clear is that Proctor's rescuing of him, um, creates a bond between them that allows Burton to say, I'll do anything for you. And that once, once that became crystal clear for me, it actually was very easy to play. Very easy to play. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:01] You know, but it begs the question now though, Matthew was like, not that, not now, but when the show was playing, like, did he save him to get this, this assassin that'll do anything for him? Or because he genuinely felt, felt for this man. You know what I'm saying? I mean, I think, I think you'd have to ask Ulrich. You should have to ask Ulrich.

[00:28:20] Um, I, uh, my instinct is that, um, one of the things I loved about Ulrich's performance on the way that character was written is that Ulrich is not, you know, Kai Proctor is not necessarily sort of all bad. The villains in the show are not, he's not an evil person. He does bad stuff. Um, and, but I think his heart, I mean, you saw it in his relationship with his niece.

[00:28:48] Um, you saw the pain in his relationship with his parents. Um, uh, you saw his ability to be intimate with people. You know, I, I think that, um, I'd like to think that he rescued this guy because this guy was in a terrible spot and he was like, this is nobody should treat somebody like that. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like that. Um, one of the other questions they asked was, um, what was this? A Reddit, are these Reddit questions? Yeah.

[00:29:16] I got, I got a couple more, but you answered a lot of them with the glasses and, you know, so you, you, you, you kind of narrowed it down for me. Uh, what scared Burton after he was accused by Proctor? Do you remember that? I had to, I had to go back on this. There was a, there was friction. I remember, but I couldn't peg the episode. So I'm trying to remember the stuff. I'm like, my brain is, this is a long time ago now. Yeah. We come back and go back and watch four seasons. Send you an email.

[00:29:45] I'll be like, here's what happened. Um, you know, Burton is not, he's not a robot. He's not an automaton. And I think that, I mean, I'll give you a general answer, which is that I never thought of him as being just scary. You know what I mean? I only thought of him as being loyal and kind of in a way in love with Proctor. Um, not in a romantic way at all. No, no. Yeah, I get it.

[00:30:14] He devoted to this person and believing in this person because this person has provided him with life and also a good life. They live a good life. There's a lot of money in that house. There's nice cars and food and space. And, um, so I, I, I, Burton is capable of being scared, but, but what he, I think the thing that is the trick for characters like that is that the fear doesn't prevent him from doing anything.

[00:30:44] Most people get scared of something. They're like, Oh, I can't do that. Burton's like, okay, I'm scared of it. I don't care. I don't care. You know, that makes sense. That's a great answer. Um, somebody asked, what is, what is Burton doing his spare time? What does Burton do? He nips. I don't know. He's making an Afghan the size of, you know, uh, the town. I have no idea what he does.

[00:31:14] Not much. I don't think. I mean, I think his, I think the job is pretty all encompassing. Um, as we learned in the first season, he's, you know, he manages the club and he's got numbers and he's doing things on the business side. And he's also, I think, um, running errands for Mr. Broctor. So. Yeah. And this is another specific question, a plot point. So if you don't know this, I had to think about this for a bit. What did Burton do to Damien, uh, Damien Sanchez's handler season one, episode three? What happened in that?

[00:31:43] Oh, that's the audition scene. Yes. Yes. Um, you mean when I go in the truck and, and yes, yes, yes. Yeah. You should use your imagination. In my mind, it was like, tear him limb from limb. You know, it's just like, I remember when we shot that actually, I remember thinking he got really in my face and he called me little man. I remember that. And I was like, Oh, you're pissing me off now, brother. You know?

[00:32:14] And there was, um, a great fight with, uh, you and Chayton. Um, that was, I mean, you've had some of the, honestly, like if I would have thought before I did my research and talking to you that you absolutely had a martial arts background, like a complete, like dedicated. I don't. Um, I mean, I, you know, I think I took karate lessons when I was seven or something, but no, I do not have a martial arts background. There are people on the show who did. Right. Um, we've had some martial arts experience.

[00:32:43] Uh, I know Chris Coy had a lot of martial arts experience. Um, but the reality is we had a team of stunt guys. There were, there were a lot of them. There were, and women, um, who taught us and we would go to, they had a whole separate gym. We had trainers who would keep us in shape and we had, we had stunt people who would train us because, you know, there was a, at least two action sequences in every episode.

[00:33:13] And so you were constantly going to the, the stunt studio to rehearse or, you know, I mean, they taught me basics of, you know, boxing and karate and all this kind of stuff. And then we rehearsed. I mean, I still somewhere have videos of me rehearsing that car fight for the first time. It doesn't look good. Well, it pops off the screen. I can tell you that.

[00:33:38] I mean, that's, that's really just a credit to the stunt team and to the stunt team that, that, that, that Tropper and Yutanis and those guys put together. I mean, it's really, it was really an amazing group of people who, who, who made us look good, frankly. Uh, could you see the, um, uniqueness and talent in Anthony early on? Could you see that? Oh yeah. I mean, and you know, he's a terrific actor. He's a really good guy. Um, he's got a lot of depth to him. Um, you know, Banshee was a very challenging job for, for him.

[00:34:07] I think particularly in season one, they killed him in season one. Um, like really killed him or like, no, I mean, no, I think it was just the amount of work. Oh, I bet. Yeah. And he had all these fight sequences. And I remember the first fight sequence. They, there's some fight. I don't know if I should tell the story, but whatever, it's 10 years ago. Um, there's a fight, I think in the first episode or in the third episode, we shot the third episode first for reasons that are too complicated to explain, but we did not shoot

[00:34:36] episode one first. Right. It was sort of like a proof of concept for the network. Um, and I remember there's a fight scene with Ant and a couple of guys in like a river there on there, there, there's a, there aren't, there's a wet bottom and they were doing a thing and one of the guys, maybe Ant, maybe the stunt guy, his foot moved in the mud and he was not aware that he had changed positions and he actually punched Ant right in the face.

[00:35:05] Um, and he, it, it made his lip really bloody. And so there's a, there's a series of shots on the show where Ant's, uh, lip had to be CGI'd, um, because he had, he, he had, he had to have stitches and all this kind of stuff. Um, I have an interesting story about Ant. Um, he, you know, he's, he, he's very alpha and he's playing a very alpha guy in the show. And I remember when I first showed up, you know, I was just a guest star. Like I was just some guy, you know?

[00:35:34] Um, and we didn't really know each other and I was with Proctor and there was a scene. I think there's a scene where he's like arresting Proctor. Proctor is fighting on the, the, the dummy and they come to arrest him and I'm there and there was, we're rehearsing the scene and Ant took a step forward to Ulrich. And I just sort of instinctively took a step forward towards Ant as to say, stay away from my guy. And Ant stopped and was like, cause he was like, who's this guy who just showed up?

[00:36:03] He was like, is he going to do that? And, um, you know, Greg came over and was like, yeah, I think that's, that's right. And I was like, okay, okay. And we had this kind of like thing. Um, he he's, he's terrific, man. He's so, uh, he's really intense. I thought his work on that show was amazing. It's been amazing to watch him sort of take off after that, obviously in the boys and other stuff. Um, he's a terrific guy. We're pretty, we're in touch a bit.

[00:36:29] Like I, I send him notes and he sends me notes and, um, we've talked as a group about having a Banshee reunion. Tropper and I talk about it on the friends and neighbors set who, and I talk about it sometimes it'd be good to get together with everybody. Yeah. Anyway, Ant's, Ant's the best. Could I tell? I mean, yeah, he's super intense and you could just tell, I mean, he's a, he, he was the number one and he, he acted like it and he was, you know, and I don't mean that in

[00:36:57] any pejorative way, like he, he was, he was, he was the guy, like it was his show and he was sort of driving. He was the driving force on it. He had all the energy in the world. Um, and I, I, I have a tremendous amount of respect for him really a lot. Matthew, do you think your rapport with Ulrich? Cause you guys said you spent a lot of time together off screen. Do you think that added to the dynamic, um, that the two of you had on screen? Do you feel like that time? Yeah. Yeah. I remember the first time I met him.

[00:37:23] I was in the makeup trailer getting my haircut. This is before I ever shot, you know, you come down a couple of days early and you have a costume fitting and you have a haircut and I was just going to shoot whatever two or three episodes. And he came into the makeup trailer for whatever reason. And it was like, Oh, hi, you're playing the blah, blah, blah. And he started telling me, this is very Ulrich. And I hope he doesn't mind that I'm telling the story. He walked in and he was like, this is what I think you're doing. And this is what I think your character is.

[00:37:52] And this is what I think your character is. Okay. Okay. And I said, that's funny. Cause I actually thought this. And so I sort of pushed back at him. Um, and then I think we both kind of had moments where we were like, Oh, that's a, that's a real actor. And that's a guy that I like. And, um, we, we sort of hit it off immediately. We laughed a lot. We had a really, really good time together. He's, and so I think you can see the chemistry with us, you know, on the screen.

[00:38:21] I mean, you see, I'm looking at that picture now. Um, we, we, we love each other, man. He's the best. I know his wife. I know his kids. Like we're, we're, you know, I'm very fond of that, man. Matthew, even, you know, listen, I love the fights. I love the, all the, the, the, the punches and all that fun stuff, the gunfights. But I gotta say what the Banshee's secret sauce is its relationships. You're, you're talking about you and Kai. That's one, but who's on?

[00:38:47] I'm so embarrassed that I, uh, Anthony, who plays the female lead? Oh my God. Yes. Their rapport was as if they were. Oh my God. Ivana is like a, she's like a magical angel of light and love. It's, it's sort of hard to explain. If you don't know her, if you've never met her, um, she's just this warm, wonderful kind of halo of wonderfulness.

[00:39:17] Um, she's like a big mush. I love her so much. Um, you know, and she's like the opposite of aunt and is really intense. He really works hard. Um, he's, he's, he's very in his own world, which I totally understand, especially when you're playing that kind of role that has that amount of work. Um, and Ivana is like, hi, how are you doing? And, oh, I love you so much. Let me give you a hug and a kiss. And, you know, she's got a beautiful baby now.

[00:39:44] And I think she lives in Ireland and we text every once in a while. I mean, I love her. I love her so much. I have a great memory of Ivana, which maybe you'll appreciate the night we wrapped the night, the show wrapped, um, there was a big wrap party and we had the party at the set. Um, and it was very, very late in Pittsburgh and she and I drove back to the, where we were living, which was maybe a 20 minute drive together at like four in the morning.

[00:40:14] And we had, it was, we had such, it was a beautiful summer night. Um, it was warm and it, we had this kind of wonderful moment together right at the end of the show. And I'll sort of never forget that drive in the middle of the night with Ivana. She, she's, she's a, she's a special person. Yeah. It's weird, Matthew, because like, I'm hearing you tell these stories and I imagine what it's like to be, because you have these wonderful memories as an actor creating what was in front of the camera.

[00:40:44] But you also have this like double set of memories off camera with your, like a family. You're a close, it's a Banshee family, right? So it's like, I mean, we, it is a family. I mean, that, that's one of the great things about this job in general. Um, I, I think of it as I hope in every job I do to gain one lifelong friend. And if you do say a hundred jobs in your life or more or less, that's a lot of really good friends.

[00:41:14] And, uh, the, the sort of the temporary intimate family units that you create doing this, whether it's theater or film or television, um, there, there's a, there's a very particular bond that happens between, I think, between actors who work together. Um, I think it has to do with the sort of intimacy of being vulnerable as another person.

[00:41:43] I've always had trouble talking about work and technique and how this stuff works. Cause there's a little bit to it that I'm not sure I fully understand. Um, but when you're with people that long, you're going to develop relationships with them, whether you love them or hate them. And certainly there, there are times when there are people you don't get along with. Um, but that doesn't matter.

[00:42:10] Um, because you got to do the job and you have to share, you have to make it work when the, when the camera's on you, you know what I mean? And so there's an intimacy that happens in that process or when you're on stage that, that belies whatever is going on off camera. Um, and it's one of the great, um, benefits of doing this job for a number of years.

[00:42:36] You, you, I've made friends over the decades that I treasure, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll never not love Ivana Milicevic. I'll never not love Ulrich Thompson or Matt Cervito or Tom Pelfry or Chris Coy. I mean, I love those guys or Ant. I love them all. Yeah. And I got to. Yeah. I love her so much. Yeah. And I think that all translates on screen. And I, I just, I don't ever remember getting this emotional about a show. Like I remember the last one.

[00:43:06] That's awesome. So, so for me, it's all, that was the emotion that like, I just was hit by like when he's saying goodbye to her at the end and they're going, they're flash. Oh my God. I can't remember when we shot that sequence. That was Lily's. I think that was Lily's last day. Oh, when aunt is saying bye to Ivana on the post. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, well, Lily too. That was a great, you know, there's, there's a ton of amazing, like sad goodbyes in this whole show. I mean, it's, yeah. I think one of the advantages we had in that season is that we knew it was going to be the last season.

[00:43:35] They told us pretty early on in the process that it was going to be the last season. Um, and there were a lot of things that went into that had to do with, uh, it was complicated to move from North Carolina to Pittsburgh. And I, you know, I think Tropper and the whole creative team were very keen on not overstaying the welcome of the show. Um, and at the same time, it was a very difficult show to make. It was hard to make that show. It was a lot, a lot, a lot of work. And frankly, I think the network kept asking them to do more with less money.

[00:44:02] And they were like, we can't do anymore with less just hard, you know? Um, uh, and it was, it was really, there was a kind of a melancholy feeling to the second half of that last season, because we all knew that this wonderful experience was coming to an end and it was, that was hard. It was hard. Yeah. Do you think the coach, and I brought this up earlier, do you think the show cut out too early? Do you think it could have had a fifth season?

[00:44:31] I think you're going to be very effective. Ask Jonathan, get Jonathan. You know, do I think it cut out too early? No. Do, do I think it could have lived for much longer? I do. Yeah. My, you know, I, I think it might've been a different, I mean, it would have been a different experience if the show had been on HBO instead of Cinemax. Cinemax, it was wonder, it was a wonderful, um, venue for the show, but it's a limited venue for the show.

[00:45:01] And I think that if we had been on HBO originally, it would have been a much wider audience. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that the response to the show would have been the same or worse or better. I have no idea, but we were obviously a big hit on Cinemax and we were going to be a big hit on HBO. We would have been a much bigger hit. We would have had a bigger audience. And so I do think it would have been easier for the show to continue on in that world. Of course, if you saw the last episode, I'm not sure I would have been on the show.

[00:45:31] That's actually a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think, I think season four would have ended if we had known we were going to do a fifth season, I think it would have ended differently. I'm fairly sure that Lily, you know, I, I think that whole storyline happened because they knew they were going to end the show. You know what I mean? Yeah. But there's quite a fifth season of Banshee right now. There's a, there's a, that's a great answer. There's a lot of shows though, that just don't know how to say goodbye. Listen, I love it. It's the worst.

[00:46:01] You're sort of like, God, why did you do this? Just like, don't overstay your welcome. Like you had it so good and you just screwed it up, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I, I love, I love the walking dead, but I'm like, at this point, you guys are just like living in my, like this, just wrap it up. Tell your story. Cause the first season of the walking dead, the first episode of the walking dead is one of the best episodes of TV I've ever seen. Ever. And I love the show and I would never throw shade on it. But after a while, I gotta be honest after a while, I was like, I just, I don't really need to watch this anymore.

[00:46:30] Like I just, I, it was just the same thing over and over again. And, um, I understand that people still watch it and I'm sure a lot of the big fans of the show are going to be like, what do you mean? Outrage, you know, all respect for the walking dead. And again, that first, those first few seasons and particularly that first season is spectacular. It's absolutely amazing. They're all so good. That first episode. I love the pilot of that show so much. I've watched it several times. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:59] Overstaying the welcome. No, bad. I have a few more questions, Matthew. Thank you. You can ask me whatever you want, man. I'm enjoying it. I have to say though, like you're, cause I think you mentioned earlier where, where, you know, Burton was supposed to be, you know, a couple episodes and done same, same, same for Daryl in the walking dead. But I think, uh, Norman Reedus and you and your respective role, I think your ability, the way your characters were received by fans, I think you maybe changed the minds of some people with your performance.

[00:47:29] I mean, I can't speak to that. I've never gone deep with Jonathan or Greg or any of those guys about their decision to keep bringing me back. Frankly, I think it was so, I was so like amazing that I didn't question it, you know? Yeah. Certainly it connected with somebody, Jonathan, Greg, people at the network are, you know, Alan Ball, our executive producer. I don't know.

[00:47:59] Um, but I, I was delighted when the calls kept coming. I was, you know, they, they just kept calling during season one and saying, do you want to come down and do another one? Do you want to come down and do another one? I did a lot of flying back and forth between New York and Charlotte. And then in season two, they called and said, we're going to, I think it was like, I don't know, eight or 10. I can't remember the number, but it was like, we want you to come back and do the whole season basically. And I was just, I was over the moon about it. Um, yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:29] You know, you had to hit a, hit a chord with Jonathan cause he's brought you to his new project, your, your friends, neighbors. And I have to tell you, we, we started the show. I loved it. And then we went on vacation. So I have like three shows I have to come catch up on. I love the first. It was awesome. Maybe we're too deep. Yeah. We're too deep. I, John Hamza. He's funny as hell. I mean, he's, he's terrific. Yeah. Um, so is that, is that part of it, Matthew, that like, you know, John looks at you and says, Hey, you know, you know, I love what you did for me before he remembers you.

[00:48:57] It's, it's, I don't know what you call it networking or whatever you want to say, but he obviously thinks a lot of you. I, I think a lot of him. I mean, I think, I think the world of him, I always say to people, I'm on team dropper, you know, um, we're, we're, we're genuinely friends. Um, after Banshee rap, um, he got married. I was invited to his wedding. Wow. We stayed friends. I, I didn't stay friends with him so that I could work for him. I stayed friends with him because I love him. Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:27] Um, I was thrilled when his career, you know, his career was taken off. He was doing other shows. He was writing movies. Um, um, when he, um, I was aware that friends and neighbors was happening. He told me he was developing a show for John Hamm or with John Hamm. Um, and you know, I think I said to him, I hope, is there something for me? I'd love to do it, but I, I never pressured him. Um, and then he called and said, you know, I have something for you to do.

[00:49:56] It's not a giant role, but we'd love to have you. And I, you know, I felt, I mean, obviously I had to get approved by the director and the network and all that kind of stuff, but you know, I felt incredibly grateful about it. Um, I hope to continue to work with him forever. Like I, you know, he's a, he's a friend. He's a guy that I love. I know his wife. I know his kid. Like I, I, um, um, yeah, I don't, I, I was, there was nothing like I would better stay friends with this guy. Cause he might give me a job.

[00:50:25] No, I get that. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. But, but Matthew, I have to tell you though, like when I see an actor like you, I feel, and I know actors that the employment can be like this, if there's never like that, it's always like that. Yeah. But I feel like somebody with your ability, like you shouldn't have those like lulls if you do. And when you do in Hollywood and that that's the, that that's the way it should be. And I'll be happy to reap the benefits of that. So there's never a time I see you on screen.

[00:50:55] I'm like, Oh, like you, Oh, that guy. Yeah. No, you always, you always deliver. I see me on screen. And I'm like, Oh, that guy again. But yeah. What else is around the corner for you, Matthew? There was something else I was looking at. I can't. Yeah. I did a couple episodes of a show called lucky. That's dropping a couple of weeks. Yeah. It premieres, I think on July 15th on Apple. I did. I was, I did two episodes. That's also a Jonathan Tropper show. I got that. And Greg Utanis.

[00:51:24] I got that job in a really funny way. I got a call from, I can't remember if it was Greg or Jonathan to say, Hey, man, we're doing this zoom read through of a script, a table read. And we, we haven't cast the whole thing. We need a body and we come do it. And I was like, sure, no problem. So I did this table read. And then all of a sudden they was like, well, they really like it for that part. And I was like, okay. So I flew to LA and did this thing like, you know, and I got to work with Annette Bening and, um, and Greg again.

[00:51:52] And, you know, he's an incredible director and, and also a friend. Um, I don't know much about the show because I only was in, I'm only in two episodes in a very limited way. Right. Right. I never saw the other scripts. Um, I believe it's based on a book, which I have not read. Um, I will say that the character that I got to play is, um, a little bit different from the characters I've played in other things. Okay. All right.

[00:52:21] It was a lot of fun. This is a guy who let's just say sits around and play some video games. You know what I'm saying? Okay. I did not have to shower when I went to work that morning. Um, I have to ask you this. Um, and if this is too personal, you don't have to answer it, but in your, in your career, has there ever been a time where you thought you had a role and maybe somehow missed out

[00:52:49] on it and either the movie or the show went on to be super popular or it was like, is there ever a moment like that for you? Yes. Yes. Um, I think every actor will tell you, and it's certainly true for me that, um, it's really great to come in second and it really sucks to come in second. Right. Right.

[00:53:15] It's happened to me, frankly, a lot, um, uh, on movies, on TV shows, in theater. Um, it's, that's a, that's very challenging. It's also, um, it's wonderful to get that close to it, but the reality of our business is whether you're auditioning for a character that has one line or a hundred episodes, only one person is going to get that job. And there's a lot of actors out there.

[00:53:44] It's a terribly competitive business. It's particularly competitive right now because of the contraction of the business and the mergers and the aftermath of these strikes. And, um, uh, you know, it's, it's hard to get a job and there, there are certainly jobs. Uh, I don't want to say that. I wish I had gotten, I mean, you know, I try not to have regrets about stuff like that. I've had a really good career so far.

[00:54:12] I feel very grateful for it. Um, you know, uh, could it have gone better? Sure. Yeah. Like, yeah, but it also could have gone a lot worse. And I feel very, very grateful for where I'm at in the work that I've done. And no, I will not tell you the names of the names of the names you came in second. Well, you got my last question. So yeah. But I don't have one of the stories where like, oh, I auditioned for Joey on Friends and didn't get it like that.

[00:54:41] That I, you know, no, I can tell you one. I'll tell you one. Okay. All right. I went to producers on two and a half men and John Cryer. So I see it. I could see that. I can see it in test for the role, but I met Chuck Lorre in his office and had a good, and he laughed and people were laughing and I didn't get it. No, you're, you're doing awesome. And I'm doing okay. I love it. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:10] Matthew, I really appreciate your time here. You're, you're one of my favorite, one of my favorite actors. And I've waited a long time to talk to you and I'm so glad this happened. Like you made my day. Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here, man. I really appreciate you reaching out and it's really lovely to talk to you. And I hope I answered your questions well. And thanks for having me. I love talking about the work. So yeah. If you're on the East coast, man, stay cool. It's, it's very hot. I am on the East coast. You can tell I've got the shades pulled. So the sun sort of stays out.

[00:55:39] It's, it's hot here. But you know, I'm in, I'm in the country right now and it's, it's, it's, it's nice. It's okay. So I'm in Massachusetts. Tomorrow's going to be a hundred degrees. So I'm right outside of Springfield, right outside the Western part of the state. You're the Berkshires. Really beautiful. I love it. I love it. I love it. Matt, you rock and yeah. Take care of yourself and have a wonderful day. Okay. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.