Episode 619 | Gil Bellows | "The Shawshank Redemption" (Tommy Williams)

[00:00:00] Why do you think the warden lets me do all that? Keep you happy and doing the laundry. Money instead of sheets. Well, I work cheap. That's the trade-off. Tommy Williams came to Shawshank in 1965 on a two-year stretch for B&E.

[00:00:30] That's breaking and entering, do you? Cops caught him sneaking TV sets out the back door of a J.C. Penney. Young punk. Mr. Rock and Roll. Cocky as hell. We like molasses! Making me look bad! We liked him immediately. So I'm backing out the door, right? I got the TV, like this. It was a big old thing. I couldn't see shit. Suddenly he hears his voice. Freeze, kid. Hands in the air.

[00:00:58] Well, I understand they're holding on to that TV, so finally the voice says, You hear what I said, boy? I say, Yes, sir. I sure did. But if I drop this thing, you got me on destruction of property, too. Hey, you done a stretch and cash bin, right? Yeah. Yeah, that was an easy piece of time, let me tell you. Weekend furloughs, work programs. Not like here. Sounds like you've done time all over New England.

[00:01:27] Yeah, I've been in and out since I was 13. You named the place. Chances are I've been there. Perhaps it's time you tried a new profession. What I mean is, you don't seem to be a very good thief. Maybe you should try something else. Yeah, well, what the hell you know about it, Capone? What are you in for? Me? Lawyer. Everybody's innocent in here.

[00:01:57] Don't you know that? As it turned out, Tommy had himself a young wife and a new baby girl. Maybe it was the thought of them on the streets or his child growing up not knowing her daddy. Whatever it was, something lit a fire under that boy's ass. Just thinking maybe trying for my high school equivalency here,

[00:02:26] you helped a couple fellows with that. I don't waste time on losers, Tommy. I ain't no goddamn loser. You mean that? Yeah. Yes, sir. I do. Good. Because if we do this, we do it all the way. A hundred percent. Nothing half-assed. Thing is, see, don't read so good.

[00:02:56] Well, you don't read so well. R R S S T So Andy took Tommy under his wing, started walking him through his ABCs. X, Y, T Tommy took to it pretty well, too. Boy found brains he never knew he had. Before long,

[00:03:26] Andy started him on his course requirements. He really liked the kid, gave him a thrill to help a youngster crawl off the shit heap. Some fellows collect stamps. Others build matstick houses. Andy built a library. Now he needed a new project. Tommy was it. It was the same reason he spent years shaping and polishing those rocks.

[00:03:51] You've been filming like crazy. I mean, it's been nonstop for you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. But, but like that, that's the mark that you've, I would imagine are shooting for. Like you've had, you've managed to be busy for a long period of time, which as an actor is, accomplishment in itself. I mean,

[00:04:20] I guess. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, I think it's, I mean, it is, you know, I liked, I liked to do the work. So, um, so yeah, that, uh, this, this, this run that I've been on of late has been, uh, very rewarding, uh, creatively, but also just a great reminder that, uh, this is something that you can do your whole life.

[00:04:51] Yeah. Yeah. Um, of late, I don't know how much you could say about this. I'm dying to ask you a ton of questions about this, but I'm, I know you're limited on what you could say. Um, how is the exorcist and what's Mike Flanagan? Like, he seems like such a great guy as far as his vision. Yeah. He's, he's like, he's, he's just a, he's just a lovely human being. First of all, um, you know, just a really smart, kind, very well prepared,

[00:05:21] incredibly generous, um, positive person. And, you know, to be invited into his creative family, um, after hearing about him for years was, uh, was a real, uh, wonderful surprise really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So are you able to share what part you play next? Or is that an NDA kind of territory? Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's better, it's better not to know. I mean,

[00:05:51] the thing, the thing that I will say about the movie is, the script is a banger, the experience, uh, being there and being a part of it and shooting in New York, you know, I hadn't shot a film in New York in 30 years. So it was, it was, that was, that was great fun. Um, the cast, uh, you know, Scarlett Johansson and, uh, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and,

[00:06:24] uh, and Diane Lane and on and on and on and on. Like, you know, everybody in the cast, uh, is, you know, is, is excellent, has an enormous resume. And, and there's a bunch of people like myself who are part, uh, you know, who have, you have done multiple projects with Mike. So it's, uh, yeah, it was really, really cool. And it's awesome that he would think of you like that.

[00:06:52] How did you happen to see haunting of Hill house? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I, I sure did. It was tremendous. Carla Gugino is a very old, dear friend of mine. And, um, and, you know, she, you know, she'd shared some stories about Mike and her experiences with him for, for years. So, you know, I always thought, wow, I, you know, that, that's somebody, if he ever gives me a call, I'm definitely,

[00:07:21] I'm definitely jumping in, you know? Yeah. It's one of those few shows, Gil, I've never felt to the point where I was scared shitless, but at the same time I was sobbing uncontrollably. I've never felt like that in a horror situation. Like how Mike manages to do that, Gil, I'll never know. Well, you know, he has a, he has a wonderful reverence for the history of film and storytelling. He's, you know, he's a very loving, sensitive person. And he's also,

[00:07:51] you know, he's also very big into the scares. So, right. You know, I think that, I think all of, I think that show is a, is sort of a perfect example of what I would say is this, you know, creative sweet spot. Yeah. And there's an unbelievable one shot in that show. You know where I put you, Gil? Tell me if you feel, if you agree with this, I feel like you're in those group of actors like John Carroll Lynch, who I've had on the show, Oliver Platt,

[00:08:20] these awesome, awesome actors that like, whenever they're called to do something, knock it out of the park. I don't know. I like yesterday, I was talking to Ben Foster and I kind of had the same question for him. I feel like he's underrated into some same situation. I feel like you're underrated to Gil. Well, you know, one of the things that's so fascinating about the journey of people like myself who do this. And, and then I, before I get into that, I just want to back up for a second, just say,

[00:08:49] I really appreciate the company you're putting me in. These are all, you know, tremendously talented people. And by all accounts, very cool people as well. You know, okay. With the exception of a very small number of people, there really aren't straight lines in this business. You know, your, your, your, your, your opportunities fluctuate your, you know, your,

[00:09:18] I don't know, your place on the food chain fluctuates and all of those things happen. And if you're able to, I don't know, sustain some, some level of a sense of humor about it all. And if you can, you know, survive sort of the low, you know,

[00:09:46] the low moments that are inevitable for most of us, you know, chances are you'll get a couple of really good swings in your life. You know? I remember as a kid growing up in Vancouver, SCTV was my Saturday night live. Like I liked Saturday night live, but I loved SCTV. Yeah.

[00:10:11] And there was one episode where Tony Bennett's on and, and Tony Bennett was talking about show business. And he said, you know, the great thing about show business is, um, you know, you can make it and lose it, but you can make it again. And if you make it again, that means you, that means you made it. And it, and it sort of is, uh, it's one of the two, uh, uh,

[00:10:39] bookends that I like to sort of describe about this journey. The other one is my favorite quote, which is from, uh, attributed to Walter Matthau, which is all you need are 50 big breaks, you know, you know, which is just a way of saying that, you know, the course of life runs long and, you know, sometimes it has to roll in your favor for you to sort of be able to, you know, uh,

[00:11:08] contribute on a consistent basis throughout your life. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Are you still in Canada? Gil, do you still reside in Canada? I moved back here a couple of years ago, um, back to my, my, my hometown of Vancouver. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I'm very happy to be here. The reason I say that is because I just got back from a cruise, which I've never gone on. And then we were in Nova Scotia, which I thought was, Oh, wow. Yeah. Nova Scotia is beautiful. And they, they filmed the show from, which I think you would have been great on as well, but it was just nice to be there. And yeah,

[00:11:38] Canada is just such a wonderful place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really, uh, beautiful part of the world for sure. Yeah. And I know you can't say anything about these either, but there's voicemails for Isabel there's in a holiday. So you've got some great projects coming up that I'm really psyched about. Yeah. Well, I can talk about, uh, voicemails for Isabel cause it's now out on Netflix and it's, uh, uh, you know, I guess it's like number one around the world right now, which is, that's right. Um,

[00:12:06] what I can tell you is it's a beautiful, uh, old school, uh, romantic comedy. Uh, it was written and directed and co-starred by the very impressive, Leah McKendrick. Um, and it stars, uh, an actress who I think is going to be a massive, massive star in Zoe Deutsch. And, uh, she stars opposite Nick Robinson,

[00:12:33] the great and hilarious Nick Offerman is in it. Um, uh, Harry Shun Jr. from, uh, Glee fame, uh, Lucas Gage from the white Lotus. Um, wow. Let me see who am I forgetting here? Um, I'm forgetting a couple of people, but, uh, it's a, it's a beautiful movie. It, you know, it came out, I guess, uh, two weeks ago today. And right in that time,

[00:13:02] I've probably heard from a few hundred people, how much they've loved the movie. So, um, if you, if you like romantic comedies, you will love voicemails for Isabel. Yeah. I kind of lost my, the track of days in a track of my, you know, my movie and my show barometer when I went on the cruise, I didn't even know what day of the week it is. So I'm getting back into it. That is a must watch this weekend for sure. Yeah. All right. Well, I look forward to hearing what you should think. And then, uh,

[00:13:30] let's see in a holidays is also going to be on Netflix. Voicemails is on Netflix and that'll come out around Christmas time. It is, it was so much fun to make this movie. I, I am so psyched for people to see it. It stars, uh, Maddie Ziegler, um, who, uh, um, you know, from dance moms fame and, uh, and, uh, the, this recent Amazon movie where she's a bad-ass ballerina.

[00:14:00] Uh, she's, she's a tremendous human, very, very talented and lovely person. Uh, Graham Phillips from, uh, uh, the good wife, uh, Elias Kakavas from, uh, euphoria and fire country. Uh, the great Patton Oswalt from, um, everything from, uh, uh, the fan to, uh, to, uh, the voice of Ratatouille. Um,

[00:14:31] let's see, uh, let's see, Andrea Anders from Ted Lasso, who's just, uh, just so wonderful. Uh, Jackie Sandler, who's, uh, Adam's wife and a, you know, a talent herself and a lovely, lovely human being. Um, Rob Lowe. I mean, Rob Lowe. What can you say about Rob Lowe? And then, uh, let's see who, who else? Uh, Chris Shire, who, uh,

[00:15:01] was in the, the night agent and is, uh, is just a great dude. Uh, uh, uh, forgive me. I'm forgetting Luke Rossler from, uh, Anyway, it's like groundhog day, except it's Christmas and it's fantastic. Very cool. Well, you know, I've been doing, I've been doing this for 10 years. I don't think I've ever seen an actor that can not only tell you the cast, but tell you like part of their filmography for each cast member. That's unbelievable. You know, that you just rattled that off.

[00:15:31] Like just no problem. Oh, well, you know, I, I, I, I love what we do. Uh, yeah. Uh, okay. So I'm, it's not on the IMDB, but, um, Carrie is coming out right before it's a TV show adaptation of, Stephen King's novel and the great Brian De Palma movie. Mike Flanagan, uh, did season one last year. It's going to come out on Amazon right before Halloween. Um,

[00:16:03] yeah. Terrific, terrific show. Um, I, I got a chance to be a little part in that and, uh, and then, uh, exorcist, which you, you mentioned. And, um, I have something that I can't, I can't share with you that I'm doing right now because they haven't announced it. And it's very, uh, it's a very, uh, security based show because it's a phenomena. Anyway, all to say, um,

[00:16:34] you know, when you, and, Oh, but one thing that I can tell you about that, uh, that I just finished as well is, um, I produced and, um, acted in this film called Idlewild, which is about, um, equine therapy and, um, ex-military who are having a hard time, uh, reintegrating into society. And instead of going to jail or doing community service, this, uh, this,

[00:17:03] this woman is sent to an equine therapy ranch where she starts to get a handle on the trauma that's affected her life. And she develops a relationship with this rescue horse. There is an epidemic in North America. Uh, I think right now, uh, 24 service members take their lives every day. And, uh, the mental health crisis is a real one. Um,

[00:17:33] you know, for anybody out there listening, if you don't feel like you have someone to talk to, please reach out to anybody. There are people, um, whether there are friends, um, members of clergy, uh, uh, community activists, um, a stranger,

[00:18:00] people will listen and the hub points you in the right direction to get some help. Okay. You are not alone. Uh, Gil, who's the woman that plays the, um, the, the lead in that, that you were talking about. Her name is Kate Zena. Okay. This has been her vision for eight years. She co-wrote it. She co-directed it. She, uh, she was one of the producers alongside me and she stars in it. It's, uh, it's really quite an accomplishment and I'm very,

[00:18:30] very proud of her. She, she crushed it. You give me like goosebumps. I really want to see this. So what was the, what's the, what's the, when's the drop that do you ever drop you? If you said it and I missed it, I'm sorry. No, no, I haven't said the job. It'll be sometime later next year. I mean, we just, we, we, we, uh, we wrapped late last Friday. So, um, you know, we're just starting the, the, uh, the post process now. Yeah. It's a topic just hearing you say that,

[00:18:58] like it was a topic that my dad who passed away like five years ago, struggled with PTSD after Vietnam, something awful. So when you say that it hits home, a lot. So I'm really looking forward to, to seeing that Gil. Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so before I get into Shawshank, there's a couple of things. I took some questions for people at Reddit. We're very psyched that, that you and I were speaking today. Okay. Um, one of the first questions though, is about your work as a producer. And it was about, uh, Temple Grand in 2010.

[00:19:29] Um, they wanted to know what inspired you about this story as an EP. You know, you, I think Anthony Edwards might've been an EP on that. Um, yeah. What a wonderful, wonderful story. Claire Danes, who is just doesn't get enough credit for what she does. Um, but anyways, whatever you wanted to say about that. So you mean, how, how did that come about for me? Yeah. So like what, as a producer, what did you find? What was the value in that? Like, what did you find in that? Okay. So, um,

[00:19:58] so I was working on this TV show called Allie McBeal. And I did, um, I did, uh, celebrity jeopardy and, um, I won and I won for an organization called cure autism now because my manager at the time, uh, her, her second child, uh, Dashiell, uh, um, had just been diagnosed with autism and, um,

[00:20:26] it was pretty severe and I was just learning about it. And, you know, it seemed like a pretty un underserved group. And, um, we were, um, my, uh, the mother of my kids was expecting our first child. And we got hundreds of letters from families after I, you know, mentioned the organization and mentioned autism on TV,

[00:20:52] just telling their stories about raising their children and how challenging it was and how underserved, that community was. And, you know, my manager at the time, Emily Gerson Sains, who's one of the, you know, the top managers in the world. She's like, you know, really want to do something to, um, elevate the awareness. And so she showed me,

[00:21:22] Oh my goodness. His name's going to escape me now. Uh, he shoots all of his, uh, his interviews. He does documentaries and he shoots them all in like black and white. Um, um, anyway, he, he, he had done this interview with Temple Grandin. Um, it was part of a collection of interviews. I think Carl Sagan was one. And anyway, so, so she showed me that and she said, well, what do you think? And I said, I think that's a great idea. And, um, and,

[00:21:52] you know, in the initial discussions, when we, you know, first embarked on this, the whole idea was for it to go to HBO because the quality would be high, but the numbers of people who could see it would also be high because you didn't have to go to a movie theater to see it. You could just be at home and it could be a family experience, but it could be a real, um, impactful learning experience. And so, you know, here, here we were,

[00:22:22] and that's what we did. And it took about 10 years. It, we went through, uh, three writers and, uh, two directors to get there. Uh, the great Mick Jackson, uh, crushed it. Claire, as you said, was phenomenal. The late, great, may she rest in peace. Catherine O'Hara was phenomenal. Julia Ormond was phenomenal. David Strathairn was phenomenal,

[00:22:51] but Claire really was amazing. And, and, um, you know, within the first year, I think something like 16 million people had seen it. And legislation started to change, you know, more money was put into research and to gene banks. And so we felt like we had done, you know, that thing that you hope you do when you make a movie, which is move people, get them to think and get them to act. And, uh, we did with that one.

[00:23:20] So it was, uh, something, something I'm very proud of. Yeah. Groundbreaking. You checked all those boxes. Uh, yeah. Uh, tell me if you feel the same as, as I do. Uh, loving a 45 is one of the most underrated films ever. And I'm not just saying this as we're talking, like I would have this conversation. It is one of the best movies you've ever done. And I feel like you don't get enough credit for it. It is an awesome movie. Oh, well, I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. it was, it was one of the, uh, the,

[00:23:47] the first heartbreaks I've ever had in my life when, when, when that movie didn't set the world on fire. Yeah. I, uh, I just did not understand, uh, what, you know, what happened. Um, but I appreciate you feeling that way. Um, you know, uh, it's a very small consolation, but it, but it's a cool one. You know, Quentin Tarantino has been asked, like out of all the movies, that are compared to your movies. Like what's your favorite.

[00:24:18] And he said, love in a 45, get out of here. That's awesome. That's great. Yeah, it is. But you know, the sad part, uh, in all of this is that Cardi Talkington who wrote and directed that has never made another movie. Wow. So my goal before all is said and done is that Cardi will get to make another movie because he should be able to, he's a phenomenal human and an amazing talent.

[00:24:48] And it's just so sad that that hasn't happened yet. Yeah. And if for anybody who's watching or listening to this, don't let this pass you by. If you haven't seen it, it is so worth a watch. If you're a cinephile more than worth a watch. It's I had to say that Gil, because I've really felt strongly about this movie for a long time. Oh, thank you. Appreciate it. uh, in a low key movie that you did, uh, the weatherman also underrated different, different, but underrated. I know. I, I'm so with you. I mean, I like, I would,

[00:25:17] I would put that up against American beauty all day long. Like I, I, I feel like it's that kind of a, a movie. And I think actually over time, it's, it's, uh, it, it, it's, it's more, uh, it's a more accurate reflection of the separation, um,

[00:25:40] and isolation that people have when they're trying to make it in America and what that means and how hard it is to keep all facets of your life together. And, uh, the great Gore Verbinski directed the weatherman and he was, uh, uh, I would come to set as often as I could and just watch he and Faden Papa Michael, uh, you know, make it happen. Cause they're so talented, but the great Steve Conrad, that's where, uh, our friendship,

[00:26:10] uh, began is I read that script and it blew my mind. And so I asked my reps, has the writer written anything else? And they gave me this script called Quebec, which ended up being the promotion that we did together a couple of years ago. But my friendship with Steve, um, is something that, yeah, that I hold very dear. We were able to, uh,

[00:26:36] make and produce a TV show together called Patriot that I'm very, very proud of. And he's gone on to do, uh, DTF St. Louis and, uh, you know, written the wonder and, uh, you know, um, the pursuit of happiness and many, many other great projects. And I'm very excited because it's looking like we're going to make something together again. And I cannot wait. Uh, yeah, yeah. Uh, DTF St.

[00:27:05] Louis was heartbreaking, but a great show nonetheless. Yeah. I mean, how original and unusual, right? I've never seen Jason Bateman's character to this day still gives me not to this day. It was only about two months ago, but I just, I've never seen a character like that. Like I've never seen somebody to that. And, and you know, David Harbor is amazing as well, but it's just, Oh, he's, he was mind blowing in that, in that show. I like, it was a, just a tour de force. I mean, they were all so talented, but David Harbor was, I don't know.

[00:27:34] It was just next level. Yeah. So Gil, I got to tell you in 1994, I went to the movie theater four times to see this movie that people didn't know anything about. Uh, first time I saw it, Gil, I had to go to the bathroom because I was that emotional. I could not believe what I had just seen. Um, you must hear Shawshank a lot. You must hear that all the time. I do. Yeah. Very proud of that. Yeah. And when you go to comic cons, cause I see the way you act with people at comic cons, you are so kind to these people.

[00:28:03] You're so good to these people. When they tell you about Shawshank, what do they tell you? Is it always about it changed my life? Is that what, what do you get for feedback on that? I mean, for a lot of people, it's their favorite movie ever made. So, you know, they, they just want to, they, you know, they, they simultaneously want to share that with you. They want to thank you for being a part of it. And then, you know, periodically people have questions or specifics that they want to know, but you can just see,

[00:28:34] you know, you can just see the sort of the profound, um, joy. And, um, an excitement that people have to convey to you on some level, how meaningful the experience has been for them. Yeah. Yeah. Um, when you're, when filming raps, do you think you created something special? You couldn't have imagined it was this special, right? Well, you know, it's interesting. Um, it's still the best script I ever read.

[00:29:05] And, and it was in a moment, you know, that year, that year I was lucky enough to audition for, you know, all three of those great movies. You know, I got to audition for Forrest Gump and I got to audition for Pulp Fiction and I got to audition for Shawshank. And if you had asked me, um, before the movies came out, I would have said, without question,

[00:29:35] Pulp Fiction was the coolest of the three. Shawshank was the greatest of the three. And Forrest Gump was the most commercial of the three. And that's kind of how it worked. You know? Yeah. Uh, I could not imagine Gil, anybody but us, Tommy Williams, and I know Brad Pitt was supposed to get it, um, or, or whatever. Um, how do you feel about that? And, and were you thrilled the way things unfolded for yourself?

[00:30:06] Yeah. I mean, you know, it's the job that let me know that there was a place for me within this business. Uh, it was, um, you know, that going back to that, all you need are 50 big breaks. I'd count that as, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd count that as about four breaks in one experience, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And, um,

[00:30:32] and it showed me a lot about what is possible in terms of, um, you know, what a movie can be, but also the sustaining influence that cinema has on people's lives. You know, I, I think, I think about Shawshank in the, in, you know, in a small way, the way I think about Van Gogh, you know, like Van Gogh didn't sell any paintings while he was alive. And it took,

[00:31:02] you know, his sister-in-law to attach the letters that they wrote to each other, uh, in connection with these paintings, uh, to the paintings in an exhibit, uh, after, uh, Van Gogh's death. And that's what changed the world's relationship to his work. Right. And I feel like with Shawshank,

[00:31:29] because the name wasn't very sexy and it sort of limited people's curiosity to go see it in the theaters. It, it was, you know, thanks to Ted Turner and TNT, um, and, you know, and, you know, VHS and, uh, blockbuster video. Um, it just, uh, you know, as a word of mouth thing, it just, you know, essentially now for,

[00:32:00] you know, 32 years, that's, that's what's, what's happened. You know, people are like, you know, have you seen this movie? No, you need to see this movie. And then that person sees it and says, you know, I loved it and tells other people. And, you know, that's kind of happened around the world. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. I don't know if you're familiar with wrestling Gil, but like, you know, you ever see the entrances these wrestlers have, it's over. Tommy Williams has that same interest coming in on that bus. And I got to tell you,

[00:32:29] Gil, and the best way, how would you answer this? So, um, when red says we liked him immediately, what is it? They love so much about Tommy Williams. Cause red clearly loves him. And, and, and he almost represents hope to everybody. Right. I think the, I think the combination of being a positive person in, in challenging circumstances, um,

[00:32:58] embodying the spirit of youth, um, you know, having a sense of humor, be, you know, um, having a sense of play. Um, I think, you know, especially in extreme circumstances, people who embody those qualities, I think not only lift themselves up, but they lift others. And, um, you know, uh, you, when you're, uh, when you're,

[00:33:27] when you can feel the goodness off of somebody, even somebody who does things that aren't particularly good, you're, you're going to rot, you're going to, you know, you're going to roll with them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, but you know, of everybody there, Tommy's probably the most innocent, right? Like he's not perfect. He's got a family. He's not, he's not, but like when he tells them that you're moving like molasses, if anybody else said that, they'd be like, you know, shut up when Tommy says it, it's, it's, it provides such levity.

[00:33:57] It provides such, such, you know, it kind of takes them out of the prison for a while. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so what I really wanted to ask you was, um, you know, after Tommy was killed and they said after Tommy was killed and Andy figured he'd been there long enough. Um, I don't know. There's just no way in heck that. Do you think that the other prisoners saw him as somebody that was just good that, you know, because Reddit, the crimes that red did was unbelievable. Uh, Brooks Hadlin, their crimes are horrible,

[00:34:27] but Tommy's just like, he made a mistake. He's got a son. He's trying to provide for them. Do you think they realized that, that Tommy is just this really good guy made a couple of mistakes and now he's in the worst place imaginable? Yeah, I think, I think they, they, I think they, they look at him as somebody that they don't want to see, um, coming back 10 years later. You know, they don't want to see him coming back 20 years later. Like they,

[00:34:57] they're hoping that, you know, this is the experience that sets them on a different course. Hmm. Um, let me, and what you said about hope, I think is, you know, if he personifies that on some level to the other inmates, then, you know, his flourishing is their flourishing. Yeah. Uh, Gil, what are the chances that when Andy got out, he helped Tommy's wife and child financially? Oh,

[00:35:26] that's a very good question. That's interesting. I don't, I've never, I'm, you know, no one's ever asked me that. I think the probability is probably very high. Yeah. Yeah. I had to look. And speaking of Andy, how would you classify the rapport? Is it almost like father, son? Is it friend? Is it all the above? Is it brother, brother? Is it, how would you, how would you classify the relationship? I think it's a little more clinical than that. I think that for, I think for Andy,

[00:35:57] Tommy was, Tommy was like a symbol of, uh, an opportunity to take all his knowledge and maturity and, um, expertise and drop little gems into this young man's life so that he could improve himself. And the act of doing that allowed Andy some separation from the reality of

[00:36:27] his circumstances. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Gil, we talked about hope, you know, he provides hope. He forgets, he makes them forget that there's walls. He proves Andy's innocent. He gives Andy a purpose by getting, you know, the GED. Um, he's, he's a major catalyst in every single way. He gives life into this lifeless place. And do you see him that way? Because I feel like Tommy Williams, not because we're speaking is one of the most crucial characters in Shawshank for about 10 different reasons. I mean, there,

[00:36:57] I, I, I think he got to the, you know, there, there's a lot he got to do in a short period of time. Uh, I remember, I think it was the, let's see, what would it be? Yeah. Maybe it was the, it was the 20th anniversary of Shawshank. So that would have been 2014. Yeah. Yeah. That would make sense.

[00:37:23] So there was an event in Los Angeles and I took my kids to it. And my son, Gio, who would have been about 12 at the time, at the end of the movie, he's like, dad, I don't know why there's always been such a big deal about you in this movie. You're only in it for about five minutes. Oh man. Gio says, Oh man. I'm like, I'm like, like, way to, way to, way to,

[00:37:52] burn down my, uh, my whole stick in like one sentence. That was pretty good. Yeah. But, but you had to love, I know your son Gio mentioned that there's not enough screen time, but just the entrance alone, plus what he does for people. He's like, he's so crucial. Gilly. So iconic, you know, it was, it was a great experience. It was, you know, it's the, I, I, you know, I wish for everybody that they can have an experience like that. Yeah. Yeah. In the book,

[00:38:22] Tommy's fate is much different for those listening. You know, he's ward and Norton offers to pay him off and then give him like weekend furloughs, transfer him to an easy prison. Um, that would not have been a good, I obviously don't want Tommy to die, but that's kind of an easy way out if they were to do that. Right. If he doesn't say anything to anybody about, you know, who really killed Andy's, you know, wife, right. That there's a book ending. What wouldn't have fit? No, no. Yeah. Yeah. And Frank would have not let it fit because that's, you know, uh, but,

[00:38:50] but that's the one thing I did want to ask you before I get to the Reddit questions. You know, um, when, when he, when, when Tommy is killed, I think Andy's hope is crushed. I think you, Tommy Williams is Andy's last beacon of hope. And when that is taken away from him, he's done. He's, he's over that. Would you, would you agree? That's the, that's the final push off the cliff for him. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I have a few more questions. You'll thank you for this. The Reddit users want a couple, um, questions for you. Um, uh, he's, uh,

[00:39:20] he's, uh, let's see here. Uh, he's not innocent. Like Andy, we talked about red's crimes. He cuts red cuts his wife's break lines. Uh, Brooks kills his wife and a daughter. Um, how do you think Tommy's is seen? Um, not only by the closest, but by other inmates, even those he's not very close to like, like the general population. Do you think he's universally loved? I think he's one of those guys who, who gets the freedom to be himself in prison, which most people don't get to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:50] And, uh, yeah, I, I think he, I think he's, uh, I think he's probably, uh, tough enough and street smart enough that he can handle himself, uh, and fun enough that he can diffuse a lot of stuff and, um, um, and cool enough to understand, uh, you know, he can read a room if he has to, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. Gil,

[00:40:19] I feel like we all know what Tommy Williams does on degree. I feel like we all know that guy, right? Um, sure. Yeah. You're one of the very few, if not the only person that has scenes just pretty much strictly with Tim Robbins and Morgan Freeman, how you feel about working with them? What was it like when the cameras were off? Just anything you wanted to say about that, Gil? Okay. Well, each of them are, you know, so, so Tim at the time when I got cast in that movie was, I think the coolest actor going, you know, he had, he had, you know,

[00:40:49] whether it was bull Durham or Jacob's ladder, he had a theater company, he was political, like, you know, you know, he was married to Susan Sarandon. Like, I mean, he w he was, uh, he was such a, you know, and he was not a traditional movie star. I mean, all of that stuff to me, I just thought was so cool. And Morgan is somebody who I'd, you know, grown up watching like on the electric company, you know? And so I,

[00:41:18] and I'd seen the rise of his stature, you know, I'd seen street smart and, uh, you know, just sort of seen like he was, you know, he was just entering the beginning of this iconic stage in his career. And, um, Morgan was, um, Morgan was very, very kind to me. Um, after the, the, the, the,

[00:41:48] when we sat down and did the table read, he came over to me and he said, how old are you? And at the time I was 26. And so I told him and he looked at me and he went and he put his hand on my shoulder and he said, it took me 27 years to make it. Oh my God. How awesome is that Gil? And I went, okay. I sent message received. Wow. And, you know, with Tim, you know, you know,

[00:42:17] I was living in New York at that time. He lived in New York. You know, we were both big sports fans, especially basketball. The Knicks were playing the bulls while we were, you know, um, making the movie. It was the famous game five where Charles Smith did not go up strong. And, um, you know, half the, the actors were Chicago based, the other half were New York. And, you know, he was, uh, you know, he, I mean,

[00:42:47] I think, I think Tim is maybe, I don't know, seven or eight years older than I am, but he seemed like a whole generation older to me. Like he's right, right, right. Way more together and way more grown up, but you know, from an aspirational place, he represented a lot of things that were very meaningful to me. So, and he was very generous with me and I, I'm, I'm very, you know, grateful for the experience that I had with him as well. That's an awesome answer. Uh, looking back at the scene, uh,

[00:43:17] where Tommy shot, um, um, how intense was that to shoot? And when you look back at that scene, how do you feel about a kill? Well, you know, it's a very interesting thing when somebody is going to get shot on set, everybody shows up. Oh my God. Yeah. They, they all want, they all want to see that happen. And, uh, Bob Gunton, who, you know, is a, you know, you know, an enormous talent and an incredibly generous human being,

[00:43:46] um, was so, um, he was just so kind, uh, to me during that we were shooting all night. And when it came time for, uh, the squibs, uh, which are those, uh, sort of, um, uh, electronic plates attached to your body, right. Uh, that, uh, blow up in sync with the gunshots. Um, you know, uh,

[00:44:17] the, the team that did it put enormous charges on me the first time. And, um, they said, yeah, it's going to feel like a little punch to the gut. And I'm like, okay. So I'm waiting, I'm waiting, right. It's right before sunup. Everybody's there. And the first one goes off and I'm like, it felt like, you know, a horse kicked me in the sternum. And I'm like, well, that I got two more of these coming, you know, and I'm ready.

[00:44:47] And then I hear Frank say, Gil, just fall down. And I fell down and I got up and two thirds of my shirt had been blown off. There were like pieces of it. I don't know, maybe 75 feet away from me. And so they said, Oh, we're going to have to do that. We're going to have to do the gunshot again tomorrow. And I'm like, okay, I'd been practicing, you know, I'd been practicing with the stunt team and like doing all this stuff. And, and, and, uh, Oh yeah, we're going to lower the,

[00:45:17] the charges to half of that. But it was, uh, it was something. Cause you just don't know what it's going to be. If you've never done it before, you don't know what it's going to be. And I'd say that my experience of that was pretty, pretty unique and pretty severe. Uh, Gil, if Tommy never gets shot with GED in hand, does he turn his life around? Oh, for sure. Oh, he comes up. Yeah. He comes up. Yeah. But I, I would agree with that. I would agree with that. Yeah. Um, let me ask you this. Um,

[00:45:47] are there any, um, if, are there any adjustments or things you would like to see happen to Tommy that didn't take place? Are there any, is there anything that you wanted to see the audience to see with Tommy that maybe didn't take place? Yeah, there was, there were two scenes. There was a decision made just because of the running time of the movie where there were two scenes that were removed from the script that there were little scenes, but they were with Tommy and his wife and, uh,

[00:46:17] Beth and, um, you know, the visit, visitation scenes. There was one where she was telling him how hard things were before he goes to ask for help. And then there's the one where he shows her the GED. And, um, and, you know, and Frank pulled me aside, uh, when, after rehearsals and said, listen, we're going to, we're going to take these two scenes out. It was, we,

[00:46:44] it was either take a little bit from you or take a little bit from James Whitmore. And I said, I said, I totally get it. Part of me was like, why would you do this? But I, you know, um, would have been beautiful. You know, that's, we, we, we actually see Tommy's wife. There's well, we would have actually seen Tommy's wife. Yeah. Wow. Tommy's wife. It was two little visitation scenes and the,

[00:47:12] the GED one, I think would have just absolutely crushed. So, you know, so a few more Reddit questions and I'll let you go. Um, I loved you. This is the Reddit. I loved you as Billy and Allie McBeal. Do you think Billy would have ended up with Allie? No, but I do think that, you know, Billy for Allie and Allie for Billy always, um, they, they,

[00:47:41] they have something that's even more, which is like, they're in their hearts forever. And that sometimes is more meaningful than being by somebody's side forever. Uh, when you rewatch Shawshank, does it still mean a lot to you? Do you, do you basically, does it, does it give you the feels as, as it does like millions and millions and millions of others? I mean, I'm sure they're very different kinds of feels, but I remember so many of the moments from the experience of either being in

[00:48:11] them or watching them or seeing them rehearsed prior to being done. And so, and I remember that summer very vividly. So yeah, uh, it, it, it's, it's a meaningful experience for me. I try to, you know, I try to keep it, you know, I don't know, once every eight or nine years or something like that. Okay. Um, one of them wanted to know, um, when you, when you returned to Ohio, you know, I think there might've been,

[00:48:41] um, yeah. Get togethers. Um, what was it like seeing the prison, the cast and meeting the fans? I mean, so I don't know if you know this, but you know, through, um, upper Sandusky, that whole region, the tourism that has happened due to Shawshank, uh, over 30 years has, um, put over $250 million worth of, um,

[00:49:10] resources into, well, funds into that region, um, specifically from people doing Shawshank tours and coming. Uh, so in a, you know, an economically depressed, uh, high unemployment, uh, area of the country that this, um, you know, this film has, has, um, continued to be the gift that keeps on giving.

[00:49:40] So it's a, it's a profound, profound thing. I think the tree that, that, that, um, red sits under, I think that was hit by, it was somehow it fell, but they were selling pieces of the tree in various aspects. And that made a, so. Yeah. Um, my last question, um, there's a bunch of rumors about Shawshank. Hanks playing Andy, Jon Favreau auditioning for fat ass. Um, so many Rob Reiner really wanted to direct this movie, which is insane because,

[00:50:10] um, in this novella, it was stand by me, Shawshank app pupil. And I always forget the third, but three of the four were made it to pretty big movies. Um, but is there any facts or tidbits to Shawshank that people just always ask you about? Or you always talk about anything else along those lines? I will just say this, the table reading we did in the prison. Um, and it's the greatest creative experience I've ever participated in.

[00:50:40] And Morgan Freeman should have won the Oscar for the, for the table read. Wow. It was unbelievable. Wow. Wow. Um, I do have to say, man, thank you for your work. And you know, man, thank you for changing my life. This movie changed my life. And you're a big reason why Gil, and for you to come on for, for all this time and do that, it means the world to me, Gil. And thank you so much for this. Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. It's, it's great to sit down and talk to you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.