Episode 612 | Peter Mortimer | Director: "The Dark Wizard" and "The Alpinist"

[00:00:07] How do you view these three guys? Alex Honnold, Marc-Andre LeClaire, and Dean Potter They're all incredibly special and unique people One in a million athletes, visionaries These guys are all amazing climbers They're also super bold climbing That's what they're known for Whether it's free solo rock climbing, free solo alpinism, speed soloing

[00:00:37] With Dean, he was also soloing high lines Walking across lines untethered across formations And wingsuit base jumping and base jumping But they're also unique too I mean, I think Marc-Andre and Alex were more Were more I think they were more In some ways, like I think Dean

[00:01:06] Uniquely from those guys had a lot of fear And he really like had to really push himself To do the things that he did I think Alex is hyper analytical And you know, he said if he can do something 10 times with a rope on Then he's like just logically He's not gonna fall Like he feels like he can do it So he's not gonna get nervous If he's doing it without a rope Marc-Andre was just like a free spirit Roaming in the mountains And he was kind of born, you know, up in Canada

[00:01:36] And his mom cut him pretty loose To go just like have all day adventures in the mountains And then it just evolved from there And Dean is something different I mean, Dean is like, you know A super driven, super amazing Really talented climber He was never the strongest Technical climber But he was really motivated to do To push past his comfort zone

[00:02:05] To push like right to the edge And I think for Dean I mean, we call episode one the death consequence And the last line of the episode is his friend saying His only therapy was the death consequence And that he would He had a lot going on in his mind He had a lot of struggles He suffered, you know, he struggled with depression He had a lot of emotional ups and downs And I think he found solace in those moments of, you know

[00:02:34] Challenging himself Putting his life on the line And then coming out the other side You would be around him and you see it in the footage too He's almost like this like glowing figure Like he's achieved some sort of enlightenment Momentary enlightenment And then he would just go back to that again and again So they're really unique people You know, and in the dark wizard We, you know, Alex is the big character

[00:03:02] And you really see the dichotomy between You know, his analytical approach And Dean's, you know, much more emotional Emotional approach What a great answer, Peter You know, my next question I've been struggling to ask you Or I've been formulating it for a while And there's no like really awesome way to ask this So like I look at Dean And I look at a guy who's popping Vicodin on Hong Kong Fui to, you know, antidepressants He's trying to get through things

[00:03:32] Alex is, you know, he has the I'm going to mispronounce this word Is it the amygdala? Is it where he has no fear of What is that? The amygdala My science teacher's going to be so pissed at me So amygdala So the amygdala where he has like no fear Which I almost feel like is a dreaded consequence in itself He might be, he might as well be just taking whatever I feel like Where I feel like, you know, Mark is just the

[00:04:02] You know, you just find clarity through climbing But I feel like all of these guys Are using climbing as a sedative And I feel like I don't know how to ask this And this is going to sound crazy, Peter But are these guys struggling mentally in ways that we'll never understand? There's no other easy way to ask this Because I feel like when you are up that high With nothing to help you I feel like that's not normal I feel like just like So if we look at the best athletes in the world at whatever

[00:04:31] I feel like that is a very difficult bridge to cross Like everyone messes up Everyone has that bad day Well, their bad day results in a lot much more different consequence Yeah Peter, make sense of this Like is it And I'm not asking you to play a psychiatrist But help me with this Yeah, I mean I think, you know, I'm a climber too And I think we all find solace climbing You know, it's

[00:04:57] And I think everyone in the yoga and the, you know, the sports that they do That's what we love about One of the things we love is you turn your brain off And you can just like completely be present in the moment And focus And you know, it turns off the chatter and everything else And so I think these guys who are doing this Putting themselves in life and death situations time and time again Are just taking, they're taking what we're doing to like this extreme level

[00:05:27] And they're upping the stakes They're upping the ante And I don't know if it's I mean, I think you're asking like Are they different from us? Or are they sort of extreme versions of who we are? I guess what I'm saying is going free solo is an insane concept to me So Peter, if you tell me you're a climber And you're going up that high with ropes I guess I get that Yeah But if you're telling me you're doing that without a rope

[00:05:55] With I mean, and we're going to get into this in a second You know, these are you where Alex makes comments about Dean going up with the parachute Where it's like, dude, really? Like, like almost like it's not legitimate In some ways That's such a unique That's such a uniquely Alex Arnold perspective I think he's the only person on earth Who would be like, dude, come on, do it without the parachute Right So I guess, Peter, what I'm asking is going without the ropes free solo To me is just, I guess, listen

[00:06:23] Everyone loves a good high in whatever way they do it Running, beer, whatever But I guess without a rope Without assuring you're going to be back tomorrow on this earth To me is an insane concept And I've never found a way to explain Alex in that way Or I guess, I guess Dean is a little different But I don't know I just, I lack a way to ask this question I really do I can't ask this question effectively I think there's another side to it

[00:06:51] Because, you know, when I was in my 20s and climbing a lot And these guys are out there every day And they're so comfortable And that rock and that world becomes an environment That you're just, you're very comfortable moving through And I used to free solo You know, way below my, like if I'm climbing at, you know, this level I would free solo way down here And it's one of the best things you can do You're moving, you're, it's total freedom

[00:07:21] And you just feel comfortable When, you know, in my best moments I would go up a, you know, sort of a low angle 600 foot rock And just completely free Completely at one with the world Like there's, there's almost It's almost like you're surfing a wave Like you're just riding the mountain, you know And so I think there's this incredible draw to it And I think every climber can see that draw

[00:07:49] And can feel that I mean, it's the ultimate source of freedom Just, I think you see these guys Just are actually willing to take it so far And to take it to such a level And that's where, you know, I think And I do think with Marc Andre, Alex and Dean It's really unique for each one of them Like I say, like I think Marc Andre kind of grew up doing it And it's just an act, it's a natural

[00:08:19] It's an extension of what he was doing With his early adventures And he just got better and better And more and more comfortable I think Alex was just, he's so logical and analytical And he can turn off that fear And he can control his emotions And with his rationality And I think Dean was very, very driven Like he wanted to be the best He wanted to, you know He wanted to push himself I think he was driven by a lot of different things

[00:08:49] And Peter, here's where I get a little like scared about this Like for you and for all Like two of the three guys we're talking about are gone A lot of their friends are gone So I get, listen, listen Like I mountain bike, I do all Like I get like you only live once And I get it, I totally get that I just, I just, I don't know I just feel like it's, I don't know I just feel like it's It's a really tough exchange to make It's a sacrifice It's a deal you're making And I get it

[00:09:18] Like it's a passion So I'm not, I'm not anybody to destroy anybody's passion But I just feel like it ends poorly for everybody And when people see And I know we're going to get to Dean obviously in a second But like I just feel like when people talk about Alex People know how talented he is, how gifted he is And I feel horrible saying this But people don't like deny like if But it's when I just, and that's a horrible way to say it It's a horrible way But everybody's thinking it and no one says it

[00:09:47] And it's just, I just, I love everybody in your docs I do, I think they're wonderful people I just, I get scared man, Peter Like you're a good bringer of anxiety Because your work is amazing Like I don't, I don't know how Peter Like explain this to me in a way that I can understand as a layman Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think Yeah, I mean I'm not sure beyond, you know I see the appeal

[00:10:14] I can see how amazing it would feel to do what they're doing And I also obviously would never make that personal decision for myself And I would, you know, it's such a personal decision I think an example maybe is like the wingsuit base jumping that Dean Potter got into Which is like a whole level more dangerous than free solo climbing Because, you know, you're flying near objects It's happening like super fast

[00:10:43] And just the statistics back that up The number of, you know, highest level wingsuiters who've died over the last 15 or 20 years is astounding I mean, it's like, it's totally outrageous And so that's something And I've been around that, you know, I've, I've seen that I have friends who do it And I would never, ever do that However, if I had like a six month cancer diagnosis

[00:11:11] I might spend my last six months wingsuit base jumping Because it looks like absolutely the most awesome thing you could possibly do as a human being Like, you just can't It does, yeah You know You're right, you're right, you're right And I think free solo climbing is similar as a climber You know, climbing is more esoteric It's more a personal art form It doesn't have that, you know, the spectacular speed And like the video game feel of like buzzing through trees and stuff But I, I, I see both sides of it

[00:11:39] Like I see the absolute beauty in the draw And I also on a personal level I'm like a much more cautious, you know I'm not going to take those kinds of risks for myself So yeah, yeah Shout out to those Cameron, by the way In your docs Like, just the people that put this together for us to see Like, I feel like the cameramen and the director, like you And just all, everybody involved with the great lengths to make this happen And I feel like I don't want that to go under the radar That's pretty damn impressive, Peter

[00:12:09] Yeah, the filming's awesome The guys, you know All of, you know With everyone who films and is rigging and setting up ropes I mean, you, these You, you have to be comfortable in that terrain as well And able to move fast And make sure you're not going to, you know, cause any problems And, you know, be Yeah, really just confident in those situations Peter, what pisses me off is I was going to lead this interview with something comical I was going to ask you, Peter I didn't know there was a Hooters in China And I got

[00:12:38] And I got very I got very serious very quick And I apologize for that Right Who knew? Who knew? But that scene in China with him crossing that rope Peter If I'm telling you I didn't get emotional with that I'd be lying to you Like Yeah Like, would he cross Like, the way you guys set that up Where he's just like He's struggling He's struggling He's struggling And he finally does it And it's like God It was like a man I think it was Winky Who, by the way We're getting to Who I love

[00:13:08] I love Winky It's incredible Oh, God Like Everyone Oh, God And it was like It's just He willed his way across And I felt like That wasn't the Dean we saw All Doc Yeah He was He was doing that Like Winky says For For two hands full of a cash grab Like he was just And it was tough to watch Because you're cheering for a man Just to get across Whereas earlier in the doc We're watching a man Who did this because he loved it

[00:13:37] Yeah What a tale of two Deans Right, Peter? Yeah Yeah I think that's absolutely right Yeah I think it's really I think that scene Is, you know In the documentary It's the It's Dean's low point In a lot of ways I mean There's a lot of ups and downs Obviously But He's clearly You know Not in a good Headspace And he's committed To doing this thing On live television In China Basically to get paid Something he wouldn't have done You know If it wasn't

[00:14:07] For the For the money And And it's It's funny Because it's not something Most people knew about Dean Because he didn't talk about it He was You know He knew it was A little bit of a You know A sellout thing And he's like You know It wasn't something That he talked about As part of his art And part of his You know His And He Yeah I mean He gets to the end of the line And he just starts Sobbing

[00:14:37] At the On live television And you know Just basically It seems like Can't believe That he made it Peter You've done Two amazing docs You've done The Alpinist Which I recommend Everybody watch You've done This absolutely Unbelievable Doc In the Dark Wizard You ever get attached To some of the people You film Peter Is it hard To Oh my gosh So attached So So So how do you How do you Decompress from that Because I You've poured Hours of your life

[00:15:06] Into this And I'm gonna let you Answer I'm gonna shut my big fat mouth And I'm gonna let you Just take it Yeah I mean With Marc Andre And Dean It's like I I knew Dean A lot better Than I knew Marc Andre I mean Dean would be You know He would be A couple years older Than me Like now And so You know We're contemporaries And we could You know We had just a lot Of shared life experience And he would You know Stay Stay in my house When he was traveling Through Boulder, Colorado Where I live And you know Hang out with

[00:15:35] With my girlfriend At the time Who's now my wife And he was just Like we And we filmed A lot of stuff together And we went through You know I was there For the high I experienced the highs And the tension And the And the lows And stuff And I mean With Marc Andre He was so much Younger than me And I had kind of Discovered Like met him And then As we were Making this film And then went on This journey With him And both of those guys It's like

[00:16:05] They're so special And so to be able To tell their stories And sort of Immortalize them In this way Is like It's like It's so motivating For me It gives me reason Like it's I mean There are people That like You know Kids need to know Kids need to know about They need to be Seen And you know My goal as a filmmaker Is to capture their soul

[00:16:34] And to capture their spirit And to like Just bring that spirit To life And I think With Marc Andre Because he was so young And he did have A really simple relationship With climbing Like he just loved it You know And so it was a really pure I almost say that like Marc Andre was like He was pure And it was beautiful And That's a great point That's a great Honestly Yeah And then Dean Was really complex And dark I mean

[00:17:03] He was the dark wizard We called him the dark wizard You know And occasionally Like He was like Yeah They call him the dark wizard And kind of liked it A little bit You know He And That was That's his spirit And I didn't want to pretend In this In making the dark wizard That he was pure Or simple Or just It was beautiful And everything was okay Because that's not Dean Right And I think I always Felt Like Because I've been there On the side of the wall With a camera Like Watching Dean Free solo

[00:17:33] Past me And watching Honnold Free solo Past me And I've always felt That Dean Is more relatable Because He was He was scared Because he was so intense There was a moment I remember filming Honnold He did this thing Moonlight buttress And there's a little clip of it In the dark wizard And I was like Shitting my pants You know There's like a thousand feet Of air below me And I'm holding the camera And just trying to be steady And he's going through One of the most difficult parts And then he

[00:18:01] And then he kind of like Is hanging there And he's And he's like Hey do you want me to like Pretend like this is hard For you know Do you want me to like Look scared Yeah This is It was just like A disconnect And Dean Was like Everybody better Shut the fuck up Before he goes And you You don't want to breathe And you want to like Create good energy That is like Flowing through the atmosphere That Dean's picking up And you know He goes into this Like almost altered state

[00:18:31] To do these things And then As he's doing I mean it's It's It's what I think a mortal Like you or me Would have to do To achieve these things And So I always found that So relatable And Yeah Just like he's such a So fascinating He's so uniquely driven To go Right to Right to his edge Yeah Great Peter Awesome Awesome answer Peter

[00:19:01] I'm going to ask you A statement Tell me if it's fair Mark Andre The most likable And What was I going to say I guess Dean being the most relatable Is that fair? Yeah I think he is I mean he's also like He He does have this mystique About him Or He You know He had this mystique Just because he was such He was like 6'6 And You know Cut like You know Just like so

[00:19:30] Such as physical presence And He's an intimidating person You know To be around So I'm not sure he was relatable Like You know The guy next door Like Hey buddy You know But he was relatable In That His His All of the complexity Of His emotions Around His pursuit Of what he was doing Makes It It It's more He was almost like Is it Oh maybe relatable Is the wrong word

[00:20:00] He was He was so He's just so human He's so Yeah Yes Yeah I totally agree with that I totally agree with that Let me ask you this Two Two Scenes that I was not ready for Was Him holding on to the rope Going on Where the Oh my god I was not ready for that Like that was If that's not a If that's not a precursor To what's going on Happening down the road I feel like nothing Would have been I just That was an unbelievable scene And kind of Like a low key Kind of maybe I don't want to say Throw away scene But a scene that

[00:20:29] Many Maybe many people Didn't talk about Was the Jan Davis scene I I didn't know Like Like I follow All your Like all your work Somehow I missed that That was hard Like I wasn't ready for that Like that was kind of like You know She didn't want to give away Her equipment So she borrows somebody else's And then she falls To her demise Peter There's a lot to absorb here Like Like I'm telling you There's four episodes here But so So watchable So rewatchable Whatever you wanted To say Peter Yeah Yeah Yeah

[00:20:58] I mean I think With both those scenes Like You know We went into this Just like We really wanted To pull Pull the veil And not feel like We're holding anything back You know Like we wanted this To feel like The most honest Story We're not glorifying anything We're not trying To not show All sides of everything And you know I think with the Jan Davis thing You just see How fast Something can go wrong

[00:21:27] Oh my goodness And to have that happen In front of You know A crowd full of people And You know And it just sets the toner I mean that The Paul of her accident Was hanging over Yosemite And I mean It still is But you know That was 1999 And the time after that It was really Just such a shocking Incident And then Yeah The Rescue Is Again I mean

[00:21:57] It's one of Dean's Low points And You know We talk I think you see a Dean Like he's a guy Who was motivated Sometimes he was motivated By like Art And spiritual At his best He was like This athlete Performance artist Who was just like Motivated by the beauty And The The vision Of what he was gonna do And then in other times He was doing He was like Not in the right headspace There was You know

[00:22:26] He was driven By his competition He was He was You know Felt like he had to do something For whatever reason And I think On the Iger He was impatient He was impetuous Whatever it is I think the Iger scene When he Needs to be rescued By the cameraman Yeah Yeah Where there's like A lot of clouds You know Yeah Yeah Yeah What a great Yeah That's a great point I mean That's sort of The ultimate expression Of failure As a client As an You know You're The cameraman First of all Like

[00:22:56] You know You're supposed to be A fly in the wall And you're doing Your thing And And so Yeah But then I love I mean Not to But that he's able One thing about Dean That really struck me In making this Is His self-awareness In the inner Like In his interviews And he'll Like He would do these things That are so humiliating Or like Absolute failures Right And then he would Completely be like I failed And I did it For the wrong reasons

[00:23:25] And I was in a terrible And you're like Dude How did you just Transform into this Like really Self-reflective Insightful person And then he's like Now I'm gonna Approach it In a more methodical way And I'm gonna go Do it the right way And you're like Yup You just did it The right way So I found that To be just I never really You don't experience That in real time I think But just going You know Through all the footage And the interviews You're like Wow This guy would have

[00:23:54] These lows That you would think Would just break him Right And be like The bottom And you're like Okay You're done He's cooked Like that was it And then He's like You know Meditating On the side Of the mountain And thinking About it And like Analyzing What he did wrong And then Re You know Realigning his approach And going back And it's It's kind of like It's a really amazing Aspect of Dean You know Peter Your doc Got me thinking

[00:24:24] Like So going back And this is the last time I will go back To mortality But I just feel like When we go back To Dean's life Like What other way Is he gonna live out The rest of his life The same with With With Mark Andre Like I feel like His destiny For different reasons Was the same And that's why I think Alec Like there's no other way To happen But anyways Like what other way Can Dean's life Play out Than the way it did In life Yeah I think

[00:24:54] I think a lot of The like I think he was Following His His destiny That's exactly It's in the end But like The way he lived His life Like I think He was I mean you see That guy When you When you're out In Yosemite Or in Utah And you see Dean out there He He was meant To be there I mean he was He was this wild He's an animal You know He's this wild animal And he spent So much time You know He also

[00:25:24] Was like Like An incredible Like uphill Hiker I don't want to say Like trail runner But you Nobody You can't keep up With him Hiking Like He He just You know He has the He had the record For years For like hiking up To the top Of half dome And then like Running up The snake Dyke route And stuff And he just Was like This wild animal In his element Out there And I think He was doing Exactly

[00:25:54] What he was Meant to be doing Peter you know These The three of these guys You know Could do anything Any of the prime Athletes we're talking About are doing But none of these Athletes like Jordan Or whoever else Could do what they're Doing Nobody Nobody Like less than You know Or what even You're doing Like it's It's an insane Amount of You know I wanted to get Into this one thing Alex was talking About There was an article Today on SF gate How he was talking About being made The villain He goes You know Yeah yeah So there's But I'm gonna Get your back On this

[00:26:23] There's 12 hours Of footage And they took But I gotta say You're watching This doc It's like Alex What clip Are they supposed To use Like are you Kidding me Like You're gonna Say You're not gonna Use it Yeah Like climate So I'm making Clips all the time For my interviews I'm gonna use Something that Is the most Poignant point Of the interview So he says Climb out Without a parachute Yeah poor Dean You know We did like 12 It's just The stuff He says It's

[00:26:52] Yeah I'm sure There's other Things he said Great Whatever But I don't Know I just There's a part Of Alex That's like It's like Why did you Have to say It Just keep Keep it In Alex You don't Have to say That Like I don't Know I mean I love Alex's Honesty And that He's willing To put That out There I just Talked to Him right Before this Call Or right Before this And You know He was Pretty Bummed He's like You know I feel Like You know He's getting Mischaracterized And stuff And I think Like Alex

[00:27:23] Is just He's so Honest And he's So just Says You know He says What he Thinks And you Know I told I was Saying to Alex I was like Dude That is Like the Way you Talk about Dean In that In that In the Show Like throughout The ep The totality Of it Is That's how He talks About Dean That's How he Feels About Dean You know He was Really Like when He talked About You know Not Dean Not wanting Dean To do The West Face Because People Would Think It would Be You know The West

[00:27:53] Face Into the Freerider It would Be the First solo Of El Cap That's Like You know He That's How He just Speaks His Truth And you Know I think He did Revere Dean And he Did Look up To Dean And you Know I think He Says That as Well And I Don't Know To me Like I didn't Think That people Would Be Like I don't Know I was I was Kind of Bombed At how People Took it As like He's The villain

[00:28:22] As Because to Me It's More like He's He's A He's A new Generation Right So there's Like a Generational Shift And B He has A different Approach But C He's Just like He's So Dichotomically Opposed To Dean You know Some One of The Brad Lynch Said at One of Our Events He said Alex Honnold Is a Machine And

[00:28:55] Maybe Alex Ends up Being Sacrificial A little But I Think it Helps You Appreciate Seeing Alex's Approach Helps You Appreciate Dean's Approach And You know And You know We always You know They did Have this Kind of Kumbaya At the End And You know Dean Really Did You know Once he Was able To Let go He Was able To Respect Alex And Recognize The Greatness Of What Alex Was Doing And And You know So I Think In my Mind

[00:29:25] Like Having That As Part Of The Ark Allowed Us To You know Let Alex Like Really Jab At Him As He Was Coming Up And Taking Over As The King Of Bolt Climbing In Yosemite But I don't Know I feel Bad That People Are Like Alex Is The Most Awesome Human Being Yeah I Don't Think I Don't Yeah I

[00:29:56] I Can I I Can Love Them Both And Not Agree With The Way Both Of Them Handled Certain Things We Just Yeah Yeah So Let You This So I Feel Like As As Dean Starts You Know Base Jumping I Feel Like He Becomes Something Different Than

[00:30:28] He Becomes Something A Bit Different He Comes A Little Bit I Don't Want To Say Hybrid But He Is Like Peter Is That An Accurate Perception By Somebody Who Doesn't Know This Analytical Sport But It's Like Data Driven Sport You Know

[00:30:58] There's Like Grades And They Have Might You Know 513 A 513 AB Or You Know And It's Like People Really Get Into Like Great Dissecting The Climbing And Dean Was Never That High On That Scale He Was So Much More I Almost Think Of Him As Like Laird Hamilton Like They Called Laird Hamilton Like A Water Man Right Right Just Someone Who's Just Like Holy Smokes He's Like You Know Winning Competitions Year After Year After Year

[00:31:28] And I Think Dean Was Just Like Like Isaiah Was So Comfortable In That Element And He Was Just Exploring The Space Up There And It Started Climbing And Then He Started Really Early On Expanding Beyond That And He Did Yeah He Was I Think What Did You Say He's Like A Hybrid Athlete Yeah Hybrid Yeah And

[00:32:02] He Said He Has This Line In The Movie I Don't Know It's In Episode One He Says You Know I See This I See Nature Like A Picture And Then I See Myself In The Picture You Know And Entering That Like Entering That Picture And He Was So Much About The Place And The Art Of It And The Visual Aspect Of It As Well Yeah Great Answer Peter Because

[00:32:32] Where Where Is Dean Out Of It One Through Ten Scale As Far As His Ability As A Climber Oh He's A Ten Out Of Ten It's Just In Different Ways You Know I Mean He's He's He's Such A Visionary He Put Up He Did Think Like I Think Okay So If You're Saying Honestly Ability Just Ability On Climbing But Alex Is Not A Ten Out Ten Technical Ability I Mean The Kids Who Are Like The 20 Year Old Kids Who Are Doing V 17 Boulder Problems Like You Know Alex And

[00:33:03] Alex Would Be The First To Say This He Would Never Touch That You Know He's Probably On Technical Ability He's Probably An Eight Out Of Ten Maybe And If You're Looking At Truly Elite Climbing Now And Dean Is Probably More Like A Six Or You Know Or Like You Know There's This Whole Other Side Of Climbing That Doesn't Have Adventure It

[00:33:43] On The Upper Upper End Of The Scale Of That Of That Aspect Of Climbing Peter Let Let Let

[00:34:13] As A Free Soloist As A Free Soloist Yes Absolutely Yeah Absolutely He's The Goat There's No Question And I Would Be Surprised If I Mean There's A Lot Of Europeans Who Are Like You Know Kind Of

[00:34:43] Anyone Does What He's Doing How Do The Up And Coming Climbers Perceive Alex I Think He's Seen As As As The Goat Yeah Yeah Yeah I Mean But In Free Soloing I Mean Climbing Is Such You Know A Lot Of Climbers Are Like Super Intellectual Nerds And

[00:35:13] Olympics Right And In The Olympics There's Three Different Disciplines Of Climbing There's Speed There's Bouldering And There's And There's Roped Sport You Know Roped Climbing Right And I Think Now That They're Breaking Them Out My

[00:35:43] Then You Look At Free Soloing Which Is So Much More About The Mind Than The Body And That's Like You Know That's A Whole Other Aspect Of The Of The Sport And Then You Look At What Marc Andre Was Doing Like With Alpine Climbing You Know And Putting Yourself Where There's You Know As Soon As You Introduce Avalanches And You Know Hanging Cerax Then You're Putting Yourself Into You Know Zones Where The The Environment Isn't Stable So That's Adding A Whole Other Factor

[00:36:13] To It So This Is Such A Diverse Sport And I Think Dean Is Where Alex As A Free Soloist Like No One Can Touch Alex Like No One Can Touch Is Really Unique Is His Vision You Know His Ability To You Know He Speed Climbed He He Did Huge Link Ups He Went Down To Patagonia And Did Like You Know These Big Alpine Solos He Was Walking High Lines He Was

[00:36:42] Combining Climbing Climbing He Was Inventing New Sports He Was Just This Creative Visionary And That's Its Own You Yeah Peter I Have A Few More Questions Thank You For All This Time I Thoroughly Enjoyed This Conversation Yeah Yeah Thanks I'm I was Like You Like Watched Everything Yeah It's Great Peter Speaking Of

[00:37:27] Something Comfortable Like Never Mind Climbing 5000 Feet Or Whatever It Is Like Dude Like It's Just Like It's An Afterthought Like It's Just In The You Compare That To The Way You Know Our Guide Kind Of

[00:37:57] Guys Were So Counter Culture And Cut Off Jeans And You Know Like Flipping The Bird And Stuff And Then Alex Shows Up And You Know Khakis And Button Down And It's Just Like He Doesn't He Doesn't He's Not Even Aware I Mean I'm Sure He Just Throws On Whatever You Know Whatever Is There Yeah You Know What's Crazy Crazy To Peter Is That Like I Don't Mad At Alex For

[00:38:27] Going After His Records How Can You Rightfully Do That Like The First One There Gets It Right It's Not Like Going After Your Best Friend's Date At A Dance Or Something Like A Prom Or Something Where We're Younger It's Just Like I Don't Know How You Can Just Be Like So I Feel Like Dean's Anger Early On Is Not Warranted I I found Immensely And

[00:38:57] Did His Best To Cope With His Demons How Is The Audience Supposed To See Him At The End Peter How Are We Supposed To See Dean Yeah I Sometimes His Best

[00:39:28] Impulses Were Driving Him And It Was And And And He He Could Be Met In 2006 So For Nine

[00:39:57] Years And Like I Really Really Really Liked Dean Like I Really Like And We Actually Climbed Together Quite A Bit And Some Of My Two Of My Most Memorable Climbing Experiences Are With Dean And He Was You Know I Didn't I Didn't Experience The Level Of The Dark Side I Mean I Didn't Get That Close To Him You Know And But He Was Really Really Pleasant Person To Be

[00:40:27] Around And You Know Peter What Did You Love Most About Him He Was Kind Of Funny He Was Just So Charming And He Could Just He Is Kind Of This Larger Than Life Character That Being In His Orbit You Feel Cool You Feel Like You're Part Of Something You And You Feel Like You're Around Greatness And It's Fun You Know I Think That's An Exhilarating Feeling

[00:40:57] And He Could Just Be Really Warm And Really Thoughtful And We Would Sleep At His House In Yosemite When We Were Out Filming There With Him And Stuff And You Know He Get Up And Make Breakfast And You Know You Would Have Just And He Was Kind Deep He Really Was You Know Liked To Think About Stuff And You Know He Respect I Think He Respected Me And My Team As Artists And So He Was Really Curious And Inquisitive

[00:41:27] Around Us Of Like You Know Why We Do Stuff And What We Were Thinking Just Trying To Like You Know Explore That Side Of It And Then Obviously He Had This Extremely Cruel Explosive Side That That You Know The People Who Were Really Really Closest To Him Many Many Of Them Experienced And I Think It

[00:42:04] I Don't Think I Did But Bringing Her In The Doc Just To Interview Her Straight Up Did I Miss That That Didn't Happen Yeah She Didn't Want To Be Yeah We Had Reached Out And You

[00:43:03] Is In That Like It's Very Size Democratic In That Different Sizes Can Can Excel At Different Things Right Like You Look At Soccer You See Leo Messi Is Like You Know Five Six Or Seven And Then You See Cristiano Ronaldo Is Six Three And Those Guys Both Excel At Different Things And Some Of The Best Climbers In The World Are Tiny And You Know There's Like Your Strength To Weight Ratio

[00:43:32] There's Advantages Sometimes To Having Smaller Hands And Smaller Fingers Because You Can Get More Of A Purchase On Small Holds It Is Interesting That Alex Marc Andre And Dean Are All Pretty Big Alex Isn't That Big But He Does Have Those Oh My God His Features Like Out Are Like I Mean I Have Never Seen Him Up Close So You Would Know More Than I Would Yeah Yeah He's Made For Climbing

[00:44:15] Yeah I Mean Like In Yosemite If You're Climbing El Cap It's 3000 Feet You're Following These Crack Systems And You're Kind Of Moving Fast And Grabbing Stuff And I Could See There Being Being A Competitive Advantage To Being Large For That Yeah But It It's Not Universal At

[00:44:49] Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah So It's It's All It's Like Soccer Players It's It's You Can Really Be All Over The Map And There's Different Different Things Have Different Advantages Lynn Hill Famously The First The First Man Or Woman To Free Climb El Capitan The Nose Of El Capitan She's 5'1 And She Did This Problem This Climb That Everyone Was Trying For Years and Years And In A Couple Of The Most Challenging Spots

[00:45:20] Not Say She's Not Incredibly She Could Only Do It Because Of That But In Some Way My Point Just Yeah Like People Can Thrive At All Different Sizes And Climbing For Sure Can You Explain To Me Dean's Route The West Rider Of El Capitan Going Across

[00:45:50] I Feel Like That's An Insane Listen I Know Nothing About Climbing But Just From Somebody Who's Trying To Understand And Learn And Become More Educated What Was He Thinking In Doing That Like What Was The Thought Process Behind That In Your Opinion Yeah I Mean So Thought Process I Think Is Super Clear And I Think It's Articulated In Face Which Really When You're Climbing It And I Actually Climbed This With Dean And

[00:46:20] I Have A Pretty Funny Story About It So You're Going Up And You Really Feel Like You're Off Of El Cap Like It's An Awesome Route And It's A Big Route And It's You Know I Think It's 1800 Feet Or Something But You Don't Have That Like When You're On El Cap You Feel Like You're Out In Space And The Is That Sound Distracting In The Background I Don't Hear Any Sound Okay Yeah You're Good You're Good Yeah Okay Cool And Then And Then There Just Is This Natural Ledge System That

[00:46:50] Dean Found And You See Him Down Climb To It And Then That Goes Actually Way Out On To The Main The Biggest One Of The Biggest You Most Exposed Faces On El Cap And Then You Can Climb Up The Top Of It Like He Does In Episode Three Which He Called They Did A Great Job Of

[00:47:20] Capturing And Free Solo Right So Dean's Idea Was Basically Like This Is A Pretty Big Step Towards Free Soloing El Cap And You Know You Would Go Up These 1800 Feet You Go Across And Then You Go Up The Top Of Of Free So It In The Middle Of The

[00:47:49] Winter Short Days And He And I Was Like Yeah Let's Go He Was Kind Of Working On The West Rider Because He Wanted To Solo It And So I Was Like Yeah And

[00:48:19] He He Got To The Point It Was Like I Was Now Staring Down 2,500 Feet It So Scary And The Rope Kind Of It Straight Across And He Is Like Come On Come On And I Just Stop Like

[00:48:48] Like, you know, I'm on the other end, almost like a leash. Right. Right. And I was like, dude, I'm not coming. And I'm like holding onto the rock. And he's like kind of like, come on, come on. It was like a, you know, like I was like a doll. And I was like, dude, I'm not coming. Like we're going to end up in the middle of the night in January. And I'm going to be like stuck in this off with. And so I made him come all the way back. And he's like, yeah, yeah, you're probably right. That was probably a good idea. Like it's pretty late. And I'm like, yeah.

[00:49:15] And then we were climbing up the top and I had carried my approach shoes. And as I was like one of the last moves, one of my shoes fell off. And so I didn't have shoes to walk down because you have to walk down. You know, it's like a multi it's it's a couple of miles, like basically to get down from the top of El Cap. And so Dean gave me his climbing shoes, which were like size 12, which is, you know, like the way sneakers fit me. And then he just did the entire thing barefoot.

[00:49:45] And I just did the whole thing. And in his climbing shoes, it's pretty awesome. Yeah, yeah. That's unbelievable. Do you do you think that Alex went after Dean's goals to hurt him in any way? No, I think absolutely not. I think Alex had no malicious intent at all. And I think I mean, Alex, I think he was going after everything. You know, he's really aware of history.

[00:50:11] He wanted to do the next level of what had been from what had been done of everybody. And it just so happened that, you know, a lot of the big objectives that had been done that were really compelling or that were going to be done were were, you know, things that Dean had either done or was was looking at doing. But no, there was nothing. I don't think it was personal in any way. I think Alex was just super ambitious. And I think I think he said earlier, he's like, who's going to do it?

[00:50:39] Like, it's you know, it's this is, you know, this is just like the next great thing to do. And I'm ready to do it. So I'm going to go do it. I totally agree. But if somebody is watching a doc and they're watching Dean's reaction, they can assume maybe to some degree that like Dean felt that way. I think a little bit, at least that like, like, what the hell is this guy doing? He knows he knows this is my goal. Why is he doing this? But yeah. Yeah. But you're right. That's not who Alex is. I don't think. Yeah. No, it's not who Alex is.

[00:51:07] And I mean, it's interesting because there's a thing in climbing where if you like bolt a route, they don't you're not like you can put they you can actually do it. You can actually put physically a piece of red tape on the bottom bolt. And that means you put the time in you envision this route and and you want it. Please don't go climb this because you're trying to to work it out to do it first. And it's a respect thing and people respect that. But that's like, you know, a specific route on a wall somewhere.

[00:51:36] But when you're talking about like free soloing half dome or free soloing El Cap, you're not. That's just like everyone fair game. Everyone, anyone on Earth can have at it anytime they want. And no one's it's not in anyone's, you know, right to to stop someone from doing it. You know, you might be kind of like you might seem like a jerk if you knew your buddy was going to do it.

[00:52:04] And then you you stepped up and did it, did it before them. And so, yeah, I mean, I think there was a little bit of, you know, those feelings from from Dean towards Alex. Like he knew I was going to do it. He says that he knew is my goal. And he went and did it before me because he's a competitive twerp. I mean, those are his. That's a great quote. Yeah, yeah. It's a great quote. And but, you know, I, I, I, I mean, if I'm Alex, like you're like, is I don't know, was he going to do it? Yeah.

[00:52:34] Yeah. Yeah. I'll end with this, Peter. There's at least again, I want to say a throwaway scene. And I hope I didn't ask this earlier, but there's a scene where they're doing like mushrooms and smoking and climbing. Jimmy, don't you have to all have? Listen, I get it. Like, listen, I lived a life and I've done things that probably are not awesome. But like, how do you do mix those two things and climbing? I feel like if you don't have your wits about you with what you do, with what Dean does, with what I feel like you're in some big trouble.

[00:53:04] How does that work, Peter? And I guess I get maybe it's a different time. Maybe it's a different explain that to me, Peter, the best way you know how. I think it's more an expression for those guys of like being so comfortable up there on El Capitan and that like they can do drugs up there. You know, they can party up there and they're not like, you know, following like the American Mountaineering Association's like rules and etiquette and stuff. And, you know, they're not the first.

[00:53:31] I think like, you know, climbers have always had a countercultural streak and they always kind of want to be, you know, you know, wild and crazy up there. And I mean, to be fair, I don't think those guys are like doing cutting edge climbing at the moment. Right. Eating mushrooms. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, it's one of my I love that scene because they're like, you know, they set up this rope jump that they know is safe.

[00:53:58] But it's freaking one of the scariest things you could do, you know, halfway up El Cap while they're like living in portal edges and they're eating mushrooms. Yeah. You know, like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I lied. I'll end with this. I got to say Winky touched my heart, man. Yeah. Touched my heart. Like, I don't know, Winky, you probably know him 10 times a million times more than I do. But like just like a guy that he's almost like a part of the earth in a way.

[00:54:27] Like he's just this man that is just so sweet and so kind and like so friendly to everyone. I don't know, man. Like there's so you tell an amazing story through four episodes. Right. But then there's these like side characters that I fall kind of fall in love with. He's one. I love Winky. I love. Thank you, dude. That's like, I mean, Winky is heart and soul, man. He's such a cool guy. And that's something like with the doc that I even like our early cuts.

[00:54:54] I really wanted to explore the people around Dean and, you know, like go deeper into the and we actually went kind of deeper character profiles with everybody early on because I do think these are amazing people. And, you know, they live in this sort of alternative universe that like most people don't get to get to to meet and get to know these guys. Because, you know, we ended up just we didn't realize we're going to be so tight for time

[00:55:22] on even on four episodes that, you know, we condensed a lot of that. But I think, you know, Winky and Brad and Jim and Timmy and Jen and Alex, like I think to me, the interviews are like they're so emotional. They're so personal. They're so honest and open. And I think to me, that's what those are what like actually elevate this to like the next levels.

[00:55:48] You just get so emotionally invested with with everybody. The more that Peter, the more they talk, the more you love them. But you know what, Peter, I am just like you. I just I'm so looking forward to your next project. Thank you for all this time. Yeah, absolute, absolute masterpiece. If anybody who's listening or watching this, the Dark Wizard HBO original. So good. Got to watch it. Peter, thank you and all the best to you. And thank you for this. Yeah, thanks.